DL1608 with QSC K12 and KSUB

[RoadRanger]

Low end seems lost. I use K12's for my tops and 1 Ksub for the bottom.

The KSub is pretty "meh" - IMO it would take two per side of the KSubs to keep up with the K12's at full boogie for a modern rock band.

[Greg C.]

Low end seems lost.
I use K12's for my tops and 1 Ksub for the bottom.  I feel like my low end is not really there.  Is this becasue my tops have technically twice the wattage aofmy bottom.  If so of course I could buy another sub (hmm where is that $1300 I set down a minute ago?) or do I turn the gain down on my tops?  Or neither.

It's an issue of efficiency and sensitivity. Subs take more power to get moving compared to tops. By all means, turn down the gain on your tops to get balance. And by all means, get more subs when you can afford it. Really, you can never have too much sub Doubling your subs will net you a 6dB increase in level for the subs. So if you get a good balance dropping the level of your tops with your current setup and you double up on subs later on, you will be able to raise the tops by 6dB to maintain the same balance. And you'll have more sub headroom when driving the system at your current level.

[WK154]

Location..Location..Location not only holds true in Real Estate but also in Audio. Place you sub against a wall  asymmetrical (not centered and not in a corner) if possible. Not far from the tops or you'll introduce other problems. See if that changes the balance. I don't have any idea about your venue acoustics. Mic placement is also critical in any venue as you well know.

[LeeSteel]

If you can get one sub into a corner and another out into the room (yes asymmetrical) it will make for a much fuller sub frequency in the room, overall.

[Greg C.]

If you can get one sub into a corner and another out into the room (yes asymmetrical) it will make for a much fuller sub frequency in the room, overall.

That may be an option for DJs and soloist that are in the corner of a bar. But It's generally not an option for a full band in regular room. Having the mains behind you isn't usually a good thing. Or having the subs located several feet behind the mains can be an issue with time smear unless you delay your tops appropriately. It's true that putting your subs in a corner will net you as much 6dB more relative output compared to on the floor in front of the stage. But there are practical reasons to not do it.

[LeeSteel]

We play with the speakers behind the band all the time. Proper eq and mic placement compensates for any potential feedback issues. My mains are about 6' above my subs on speaker poles.

[Harpman]

Low end seems lost.
I use K12's for my tops and 1 Ksub for the bottom.  I feel like my low end is not really there.  Is this becasue my tops have technically twice the wattage aofmy bottom.  If so of course I could buy another sub (hmm where is that $1300 I set down a minute ago?) or do I turn the gain down on my tops?  Or neither.

Thanks

Chris

Chris, I only run 1 KSub and the low end is plenty.  I did an outdoor gig last Saturday where I mic'd up a Djembe and set my channel EQ's accordingly and had to actually back down the sub gain.  I started with both the K12's and KSub at unity (12 o'clock position).  I had to set the sub between 10 and 11 o'clock which I would assume somewhere between -3 to -6db.

[LeeSteel]

By placing one sub near a corner, you are essentially turning the entire room into the speaker enclosure.

[WK154]

I thought that we are talking about ONE sub and I did say NOT in the corner. and since I don't know the layout it's clearly a trial and error thing. But there usually is some extra (3dB) that can be squeezed out of a venue. Acoustics has nothing to do with DJ's etc. If were also talking about the DL then delays are not to be had. Nothing was implied about mains behind the talent.

[LeeSteel]

I thought that we are talking about ONE sub and I did say NOT in the corner. and since I don't know the layout it's clearly a trial and error thing. But there usually is some extra (3dB) that can be squeezed out of a venue. Acoustics has nothing to do with DJ's etc. If were also talking about the DL then delays are not to be had. Nothing was implied about mains behind the talent.

I was stating that this is the way that I do it. I run 2 subs and most of the time I set up the band with the speakers behind. I never mentioned DJ either. I realize that you said NOT in the corner but for anyone here who isn't familiar with using subs, there are ways to optimize their effectiveness in a room by positioning 1 sub, even if that is the only one you have, near a corner and then tweaking it's location until you have tuned the room the way you want it to sound.

[Greg C.]

By placing one sub near a corner, you are essentially turning the entire room into the speaker enclosure.

Yup, it's boundary loading. For every surface you add within a 1/4 wavelength of the enclosure, you net a 3dB gain in output as each surface acts as an acoustic "mirror" doubling the number of virtual drivers. So:

sub hanging in mid air = 0dB (whole space loading)
sub on the floor = +3dB (half space loading)
sub on floor and against 1 wall = +6dB (1/4 space loading)
sub on floor in corner against 2 walls = +9dB (1/8th space loading)

In theory if you had a horn shaped room and placed the sub in the small corner where the ceiling met the floor, you'd have +12dB more output compared to whole space.

[LeeSteel]

By placing one sub near a corner, you are essentially turning the entire room into the speaker enclosure.

Yup, it's boundary loading. For every surface you add within a 1/4 wavelength of the enclosure, you net a 3dB gain in output as each surface acts as an acoustic "mirror" doubling the number of virtual drivers. So:

sub hanging in mid air = 0dB (whole space loading)
sub on the floor = +3dB (half space loading)
sub on floor and against 1 wall = +6dB (1/4 space loading)
sub on floor in corner against 2 walls = +9dB (1/8th space loading)

In theory if you had a horn shaped room and placed the sub in the small corner where the ceiling met the floor, you'd have +12dB more output compared to whole space.

Excellent info Greg!  The whole point is that, if you find that your subs are not keeping up with your tops, you probably have them poorly positioned in the room.

[LeeSteel]

Just to be clear, we are taking about setting up indoors. I would never have the speakers behind the band outdoors. I am also talking about small clubs and not large venues. My first objective is to get the thump going in the room, everything else is icing on top of that. With my mains at 6' (above the vocal mics) I don't find it very hard to dial up good vocals without feedback.

[WK154]

Outdoors is a free field situation a whole different world. Lee the DJ thing was directed to Greg. Trying to compact replies.

[musicman7722]

good points all thank you