IPad Air 2 Does the Trick with MF 3.X. In My Perception

[sam.spoons]

+1, quieter is almost always better if you actually want to listen to the music. 

[Wynnd]

I love intense music.  I never confuse intense with LOUD.

[Fluddman]

I do sound for a lot of bands mainly in bars and clubs with a couple of hundred people max. I guess this is the lower end of the gene pool and I notice two main things - most play too loud and too fast.

Bands that can control and balance their volume are such a pleasure. Fortunately I have a few regulars that fit into this category but even these struggle to keep control in venues that are just not set up for live sound.

Put a drum kit in a room with hard floors and lots of hard reflective surfaces and its always going to be a nightmare. Funny that these venues often hire loud rock bands and then complain they are too loud!

I do one such venue and when the licensee complains to me I actually turn off the front of house to demonstrate how much spill is coming of the glass and hard wooden walls that surround the stage. Its amazing how loud it is even with the FOH off. I am trying to convince him to at least put some carpet down and some thick curtains but he just won't do it!

On another note I think some musicians really just can't tell when they are too loud while other simply just don't care (or I can't get my sound unless its loud!).

We are getting further off topic but I am finding it of great interest.

[sam.spoons]

Most of my gigs are in the 50-200 punters range too, and I'm doing more acoustic based stuff than rock bands these days (which suits me). As you say, many semi-pro muso's can't control their stage volume and in smaller venues that can make the sound engineer's job impossible. Add in crap venue acoustics and you have a recipe for disaster.

[RoadRanger]

Put a drum kit in a room with hard floors and lots of hard reflective surfaces and its always going to be a nightmare.

Absolutely not true, a real drummer can play softly enough to rehearse in an apartment - been there, done that .

On another note I think some musicians really just can't tell when they are too loud while other simply just don't care (or I can't get my sound unless its loud!).

More like "don't care". Unfortunately if you're doing general providing you'll either deal with LOTS of them arsehats or not work a lot - I choose the latter. I was providing for a 7 piece horn band last night with just my 10" mains (no subs) and a pair of 10" side fills for monitoring - and I still had four mics on the drummer with his two toms and the kick in them mains with headroom to spare. The mic on the snare/HH and two horns were just run into the 'verb with no "dry" in the mains - but the drummer's vocal mic picks up a bit of snare anyways...

[Wynnd]

Great term.  "Real Drummer".  Guess I've only known a handful of real drummers in my life and all of them have been a pleasure to work with.  My thought has been if the music sounds good on a jukebox, then good musicians can also sound good at that level.  I have a friend who now lives in Dallas/Ft Worth who I've never seen go to brushes for low volume.  He's about as great a low volume drummer as I've ever heard.  (And a great guy to work with.  Wish he was still in Denver.)  Sticks down to about 60 db and he is so in the pocket.  Any of you looking for those skills in Dallas can shoot me a PM and I'll gladly pass it on.

[RoadRanger]

Kinda funny, I picked up a power soak for one of my guitarists a couple weeks back. While I think he'll eventually buy it from me it's the best investment in band equipment ever IMO . I'm able to comfortably play through a 30w tube bass amp (Ashdown CTM-30) now .

These are a great deal, they use 100w L-Pads (good for a 50w guitar amp) with a HF bleed cap - inexpensive, well made, and sound great!
http://www.ebay.com/sch/m.html?_ssn=carlscustomguitar&_nkw=soak

[Wynnd]

Had a former guitarist who used one.  Yes they do sound good.  (And he's turned into an alcoholic.  Pity, I enjoyed working with him, but those days are over.)

[Fluddman]

Put a drum kit in a room with hard floors and lots of hard reflective surfaces and its always going to be a nightmare.

Absolutely not true, a real drummer can play softly enough to rehearse in an apartment - been there, done that .

On another note I think some musicians really just can't tell when they are too loud while other simply just don't care (or I can't get my sound unless its loud!).

More like "don't care". Unfortunately if you're doing general providing you'll either deal with LOTS of them arsehats or not work a lot - I choose the latter. I was providing for a 7 piece horn band last night with just my 10" mains (no subs) and a pair of 10" side fills for monitoring - and I still had four mics on the drummer with his two toms and the kick in them mains with headroom to spare. The mic on the snare/HH and two horns were just run into the 'verb with no "dry" in the mains - but the drummer's vocal mic picks up a bit of snare anyways...

Point taken about real drummers. One very good one that I occassionaly work with, has used an electronic kit for as long as I can remember. Man does that make life easier for the sound guy! And yeah, he would rather use one of his many acoustic kits but he is using the electronic kit for the sake of keeping down the overall sound of the band.

THere's a guitarist in another band I (and the rest of the band) have a constant struggle with regarding volume. At a recent gig we set up his amp elevated and angled at his ears - half way through the first set he angled it away from him and during the break he put it back on the floor.  He said he didn't like the guitar sound directly from his amp!

Cheers

[Wynnd]

And I can never understand why the guitarist just turned his amp down.  You can always throw a mic on the amp and few mixers don't have an extra input available.  I'm like you.  Just want the guitarist to back off by hearing his amp much better. 

[sam.spoons]

+1, WTF did he think the audience were hearing?

[Wynnd]

I have seen guitarists think that the audience can't hear them well enough.  All it takes is for guitarist's guitar playing friend who is used to hearing more guitar to tell him that he can't hear the guitar in the audience.  That can screw a guitarist for life.  (And the mix might have been perfect before he mentioned it to his friend.)  This is where a sound engineer can make a serious difference, but the band has to trust him. 

[Fluddman]

+1, WTF did he think the audience were hearing?

In this case the audience (and unfortunately the bar staff) were in the direct line of fire and were coping an ear shattering beam of trebley guitar noise.

I guess those of us that do sound can appreciate how different a guitar can sound out front compared to the players position. I encourage them to get a long lead or a wireless and listen out front.

Cheers

[sam.spoons]

Exactly my point, if he hated that sound why on earth did he think the audience should be subjected to it? Tell him the correct answer is to get a sound you like when you can hear your amp and you (the soundie) will stick a mic on his speaker and ensure the audience get to hear the same 'beautiful' sound 

[Keyboard Magic]

Boy, talk about a topic getting derailed.  That’s okay though, this stuff is even more interesting.  On that note (pun intended) I remember playing in stage bands in my college days and the conductor telling us that if you couldn’t hear the player/instruments beside you, you were playing too loud. Non of the sections were ever mic'd during concerts including the drums.

But the same rule really should apply today, I think.