Author Topic: Am I using the DL32R right?  (Read 5858 times)

cyclops

  • Youngling
  • **
  • Location:
  • Posts: 22
Am I using the DL32R right?
« on: March 11, 2015, 03:09:52 AM »
Hi all!
I've had the DL32R since day 1, and it has been working well for me.  However, I'm starting to question if I'm using the mixer right...  I typically use the compressors and their makeup gain to get a good sounding mix.  This usually does the trick.  However, I've been going back over some DVDs and books, and almost everyone talks about getting the gain staging correct to get the most effective signal-to-noise ratio on the mixer.  I feel like I tend to run the input gain low and use the compressor's makeup gain to output a smoother signal.  To me, it seems like the more I up the input gain, the quicker the singer's mics feed back, but if I use the compressor's makeup gain, I get a better, more controlled sound without the feedback.  (this is with the compressors doing very little work)

This weekend, I set up a new band that I was running sound for, and tried to do it 'right' (i.e. using only the input gain to set the levels), and it sounded terrible until I started kicking in the makeup gain with the compressors on the mains, the monitors, and channels.

How is everyone else running their channels and mains / monitors in terms of the compressors?

One other question... does anyone know where the signal level is being measured at on the main screen?  I have channels that have zero input gain, but are showing as a strong signal on the main screen.  Is there any way to set those meters so that they show pre gain level, post gain level, and/or post fader level?

Thanks!
- cyclops

Wynnd

  • Master
  • *****
  • Location: Denver Co.
  • Posts: 1403
Re: Am I using the DL32R right?
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2015, 04:50:19 AM »
I've got the DL1608 and things are a little bit different.  But don't worry too much about doing it "right".  If it works for you, go ahead and do it.  As far as suggestions for use, they are guidelines and not gospel.  Just one warning, if you have someone else sit in on your board, you had better warn them before they change everything on you.  I have one person who sits in for me.  (Rarely, but he's a friend and has some familiarity with the system.) 

I rarely use the compression make up on my mixer.  (There are times I do.)  I also nearly never get feedback.  (Got DriveRack PXs on the L/R and Aux 1+2 for EQ and anti-feedback.  And I really hate LOUD crap.)

Sir Krang

  • Padawan
  • ***
  • Location:
  • Posts: 74
Re: Am I using the DL32R right?
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2015, 04:56:17 AM »
G'day Cyclops

I've been in the live music industry for 28 years. I have zero experience with "text book" sound engineering.
My experience has been 100% hands on, and I learnt very early that if it sounds good, and everything is working well then that's all that's really needed.

My point is that if what You do gives good results then my advice would be to stick with that, unless you are given advice on something else to try that gives you even better results. No point complicating something if what you already do is good .. In your ears.

To directly address your question, I set my overall gain structure as close to unity as possible BEFORE adding any other processing like compression, limiting, EQ..

And I tend to use as little comp/limit/EQ as I can possibly get away with after playing with mic position etc.
But that's just what I do. Doesn't mean it's 100% correct for anyone else.

Trial and error, in moderation, is an extremely good learning tool. Cheers :)

Wynnd

  • Master
  • *****
  • Location: Denver Co.
  • Posts: 1403
Re: Am I using the DL32R right?
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2015, 04:59:35 AM »
Just a thought.  If you have someone sit in on your board, let them run the faders using My Fader app.  That way they can't screw with your compression settings.  Good use for that app.

stevegarris

  • Knight
  • ****
  • Location: Woodinville, WA
  • Posts: 222
Re: Am I using the DL32R right?
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2015, 10:27:00 PM »
I use the comp makeup gain on vocal mic's, on every show. It gives me a "trim" control at the ipad (DL1608). I too use comp's very sparingly.

cyclops

  • Youngling
  • **
  • Location:
  • Posts: 22
Re: Am I using the DL32R right?
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2015, 04:54:23 AM »
Thanks guys!

musicdan

  • Padawan
  • ***
  • Location: Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, Canada
  • Posts: 37
Re: Am I using the DL32R right?
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2015, 03:17:56 AM »
The input gain control boosts or cuts a signal to a usable level for the mixer.  Where it is true that the police won't arrest you if you have this set wrong, having it set correctly is ideal.

Think of it as a car's tire pressure. The ideal pressure for everyday driving is usually around 32psi with all 4 tires at the same pressure. Sure your car will still drive with 10psi in one tire and 40psi in the rest, but things like handling, fuel milage, and tire life would be affected.

I'm a firm believe of being experimental when it comes to mixing, but there are certain things that you can do so you're not set up for failure right out of the gate. Proper gain stage gives you a good clean signal to use, and everything downstream (eq, compressor, reverb, delay etc) will have this ideal signal voltage and will function to their full capability. Low gain will usually result in a muddy, lifeless mix. High gain will over drive the input and distort your signal.

Signal to noise ratio: Any amplified signal is made of two parts, the desired signal (from your microphone diaphragm or guitar pickups, keyboard etc) and background noise caused by radio, electrical and magnetic interference either on the stage or from inside the mixer itself. The mixer will amplify 100% of the combined signal and doesn't care if the signal it receives is from your lead singer or the transformer in your power supply . Its your job as a sound engineer to feed the mixer input with the signal you want and filter out as much noise as possible. I'm going to steal some of an analogy used when explaining power factor, I'll try to apply it to signal to noise ratio as best as possible.

You are a bartender(sound engineer) and a customer just ordered a beer.  The contents of a beer mug is beer(signal) and foam(noise). If the keg is too warm or the beer is poured too fast, you'll have mostly foam and very little beer. You're customer is not getting their money's worth and it won't quench their thirst. If it's poured properly at the correct temperature, they'll have mostly beer with a small amount of foam on the top.

Headroom: When you walk across the room with the beer in your hand it begins to slosh around in the mug(AC signal). If it was filled level with the top, you'll surely spill it when you walk. By leaving a small amount of foam between the beer and the top of the mug, the beer can now slosh around without spilling over the top. Idealy, you would want as much beer in the glass as possible without spilling it over the top.

or.... you want as much signal (beer) into the mixer input (mug) without overdriving it(spilling beer)
DL1608

James91104

  • Knight
  • ****
  • Location:
  • Posts: 152
Re: Am I using the DL32R right?
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2015, 04:47:38 AM »
The input gain control boosts or cuts a signal to a usable level for the mixer.  Where it is true that the police won't arrest you if you have this set wrong, having it set correctly is ideal.
Think of it as a car's tire pressure.
Signal to noise ratio:
You are a bartender(sound engineer) and a customer just ordered a beer.  The contents of a beer mug is beer(signal) and foam(noise). 
or.... you want as much signal (beer) into the mixer input (mug) without overdriving it(spilling beer)

However, an encounter with the police may occur after having found oneself having an overload of signal(beer) and operating a car with zero psi tire pressure, consequently having foam(noise) applied by the Fire Department on said vehicle post head-on to innocent hydrant. :facepalm:

cyclops

  • Youngling
  • **
  • Location:
  • Posts: 22
Re: Am I using the DL32R right?
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2015, 10:50:35 PM »
LOL!!!!

Soundbyte

  • Padawan
  • ***
  • Location: BC-Canada
  • Posts: 35
Re: Am I using the DL32R right?
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2015, 10:24:31 PM »
Hi all!
I've had the DL32R since day 1, and it has been working well for me.  However, I'm starting to question if I'm using the mixer right...  I typically use the compressors and their makeup gain to get a good sounding mix.  This usually does the trick.  However, I've been going back over some DVDs and books, and almost everyone talks about getting the gain staging correct to get the most effective signal-to-noise ratio on the mixer.  I feel like I tend to run the input gain low and use the compressor's makeup gain to output a smoother signal.  To me, it seems like the more I up the input gain, the quicker the singer's mics feed back, but if I use the compressor's makeup gain, I get a better, more controlled sound without the feedback.  (this is with the compressors doing very little work)

This weekend, I set up a new band that I was running sound for, and tried to do it 'right' (i.e. using only the input gain to set the levels), and it sounded terrible until I started kicking in the makeup gain with the compressors on the mains, the monitors, and channels.

How is everyone else running their channels and mains / monitors in terms of the compressors?

One other question... does anyone know where the signal level is being measured at on the main screen?  I have channels that have zero input gain, but are showing as a strong signal on the main screen.  Is there any way to set those meters so that they show pre gain level, post gain level, and/or post fader level?

Thanks!
- cyclops

Nothing wrong with the way you're doing it if it works for you. I'll try to explain to you about the feedback you experience using the gain control. First, you should adjust the input gain before you add compression, here's why. The threshold level you set on the compressor is gain dependant. Meaning that changing the gain at the preamp stage will affect the threshold that you set. Turning the gain up will be similar to lowering the threshold. You'll find that the compression becomes overly sensitive and will start compressing faster than you wanted. An overly compressed signal is much more likely to feed back.

Here's something you can try. Turn off the compression, then adjust the preamp input until you're satisfied with the level in the mix. Now turn down the make up gain on the comp, select the ratio and raise the threshold till the amount of compression sounds right for you. Adjust the attack and release for a natural effect. At this point you'll notice that the average level of the signal is somewhat lower due to the compression. This is where you adjust the make up gain and bring the level back up to compensate for the loss.

Adjusting the input gain is no problem as long as you keep in mind that you'll need to readjust the compressor each time you make a change. Hope this helps.

Dwain

cyclops

  • Youngling
  • **
  • Location:
  • Posts: 22
Re: Am I using the DL32R right?
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2015, 03:01:11 AM »
It does :)  I do mixing at home in a small home studio and as a weekend warrior.  Been catching a lot of bands lately, and I feel like I have a superior mix with the DL32R and using the compressors / gates the way that I do vs. the older boards that don't have those features.  i miss my multi band compressor on the output channels from the Line 6 Stagescape, as I feel that can really tame the low-mids in a live mix.  I'm learning to start pulling back on the 250 hz, as there seems to be a lot of build up in that area.

Trying to improve one mix at a time!

- cyclops

sam.spoons

  • Pint #2
  • Master
  • *****
  • Location: Manchester UK
  • Posts: 772
Re: Am I using the DL32R right?
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2015, 10:19:30 AM »
Actually it's not compression that increases the risk of feedback but the addition of make up gain (pedantic I know, sorry  ::) ). Looking at it logically a compressor compresses the signal, i.e. reduces the gain on the louder bits. To compensate for this we "make up" the gain on everything which also increases the likelihood of feedback just like turning up the gain without compression would.

What this means in real life is that if you just use compression with a high threshold and high ratio to control the peaks you won't need to add make up gain and thus won't increase the feedback risk. If you use a low compression threshold you'll need more make up gain and have more risk of feedback.

robbocurry

  • Optimist Prime
  • Master
  • *****
  • Location: United Kingdom
  • Posts: 650
Re: Am I using the DL32R right?
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2015, 05:14:31 PM »
It does :)  I do mixing at home in a small home studio and as a weekend warrior.  Been catching a lot of bands lately, and I feel like I have a superior mix with the DL32R and using the compressors / gates the way that I do vs. the older boards that don't have those features.  i miss my multi band compressor on the output channels from the Line 6 Stagescape, as I feel that can really tame the low-mids in a live mix.  I'm learning to start pulling back on the 250 hz, as there seems to be a lot of build up in that area.

Trying to improve one mix at a time!

- cyclops
Wow, Stagescape has a multiband compressor!?
I'd love that on a few of my mixers...... :D
The older I get, the better I was!

RoadRanger

  • SysGod
  • Counselor
  • Master
  • *****
  • Location: NE CT USA
  • Posts: 1776
  • "Wherever you go, There you are"
    • Cacophony Forums
Re: Am I using the DL32R right?
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2015, 06:00:06 PM »
I believe the Behringer X series have multiband comps available, probably take up an FX slot each (or maybe two per slot?).

Fluddman

  • Knight
  • ****
  • Location: Sydney, Australia
  • Posts: 226
Re: Am I using the DL32R right?
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2015, 09:03:37 PM »
It does :)  I do mixing at home in a small home studio and as a weekend warrior.  Been catching a lot of bands lately, and I feel like I have a superior mix with the DL32R and using the compressors / gates the way that I do vs. the older boards that don't have those features.  i miss my multi band compressor on the output channels from the Line 6 Stagescape, as I feel that can really tame the low-mids in a live mix.  I'm learning to start pulling back on the 250 hz, as there seems to be a lot of build up in that area.

Trying to improve one mix at a time!

- cyclops

Yeah I also find cutting (around) 250hz helps clean things up. Good for improving clarity on male vocals too!

Cheers