Master Fader just won't stay sync'd with DL32R

[msmithers]

Hi All,

I'm at my wits end with the DL32R and iOS devices. They won't stay sync'd to the Mackie and I'm lucky to get more than 10's of seconds of control at a time.

My setup is as follows
- Mackie DR32R mixing stage aux's and sending most inputs out over Dante. (Running 4.5.3)
- Two Yamaha mixers with MY16-AUD cards at FOH receiving inputs over Dante
- Lab Gruppen PLM amps for FOH receiving stereo over Dante from one of the Yamaha's
- Fully, physically redundant networks. (A pair of gigabit switches at stage and another pair with the mixers.)
- 48 kHz
- Lake control on the primary network
- Zero-conf self-assigned addresses on both primary and secondary networks
- Latest Airport Express connected to the Mackie control port and running separately named 2.4 and 5 gHz bands in clear bands.

We suspect that the iOS devices just don't like the self-assigned addresses and no internet, and so they're maybe trying to look for better networks. By contrast, the Win7 Motion Computing tablet, running the Lake control, is rock solid and never disconnects.

During prep for a gig yesterday we tried using DHCP (with something like 10.1.x.x addresses) on the primary network only, and the Mackie went crazy. Dante audio from the Mackie started stuttering, the Mackie would disappear/reappear/disappear from the Dante Controller and there was a flood of ARP requests on the Primary network. Once we went back to zero-conf on the Primary network, the Mackie settled down and audio flowed well.

We meticulously checked for any accidental bridging between the Primary and Secondary networks, and checked many of the patch cables.

Whenever we changed addressing on the network, we powered down every device, including the switches, then powered everything back up.

We tried running some iPads using the camera adapter / apple USB network adapters. This was ok, but we couldn't walk around. It also wasn't 100% solid - maybe because other iOS devices were having problems and confusing the DL32R.

We also tried an old commercial grade CISCO WAP, but still no luck.

Does anyone have any suggestions?

My understanding is that DHCP on primary and self-assigned on secondary is a supported (and fairly common) operating mode.

I should also mention that the Yamaha and Lab Gruppen devices never miss a beat. Dante audio between them  is completely reliable, the Lake control is solid and the Dante Controller sees them fine. But the Mackie is problematic!!

Thanks,
Michael

[Weogo]

Hi Michael,

I'm using an Ipad-3, Ipad-Air, and Ipad-Air-2 with my DL32R;
not using the Dante card(don't have one yet).
Routers are ASUS N66, AC66, AC68.

Connection is consistently rock solid.
Saturday I provided audio for the Asheville, NC USA, Women's March, right downtown, with LOTS of wireless happening.
Had a solid connection the whole time.
(In a town of 60K residents over 15K showed up for the March!)

I suggest you pull the Dante card and go back to the basic ethernet card.
Turn off all apps but MasterFader.
Get an Ipad solidly connected to the DL32R with DHCP or static IP.
Once this is good, add the Dante card back in.
Add devices one at a time until you have issues, and sort it out.
This is the basic divide-and-conquer strategy.

Please let us know how it turns out!

Thanks and good health,  Weogo

[WK154]

Hi and welcome. Given minimal info or the purpose of your network design one can only make observations based on what you described. The "Fully, physically redundant networks. (A pair of gigabit switches at stage and another pair with the mixers.)" isn't possible since none of the devices mentioned have dual fail-over  hardware and software. I would first get the network and all the devices working with a single DHCP server (remove dual switch connection). If you can't get this working smoothly then individual end nodes need to be removed to find the problem. The Zero-conf was introduced as a backup IP method if a DHCP server failed (at Microsoft's insistence) never as a mode for running a network. Transitions to this mode varied all over the place with manufacturers. It is certainly not as you stated "My understanding is that DHCP on primary and self-assigned on secondary is a supported (and fairly common) operating mode." Once you have a reliable DHCP driven system I would switch it to static IP addresses to eliminate the overhead and reduce any possibility of a device running out of a lease at the most inopportune time (Murphy's Law). Time critical network devices don't take kindly to delays. Then there is the ever present question of who's using TCP/IP and who's using UDP for critical communications.  The point here is to just simplify. I found Mackie's network code wanting (DL1608). I suspect that it may be common code for DL32r as well. Good Luck and KISS.

[msmithers]

Hi Weogo,

Thanks. Yep, we're definitely planning all that kind of troubleshooting once todays event is over.

Hi WK154,

Re purpose.... the Mackie is acting as head amps for the FOH Yamaha mixers - it's much cheaper than a Yamaha RIO stage box - and the Mackie has the benefit of being able to locally mix all the stage monitors.

Re redundancy.... all the Yamaha MY cards, the Mackie DL32R and the Lab Gruppen PLM's have separate primary and secondary network ports. The redundancy works very well. And if both networks fail, the Yamaha's to the PLM's have analog fail-over for FOH sound.

Actually DHCP on primary and self-assigned on secondary as OK was mentioned by one of the folks at Audinate (Dante) here in Sydney. I spoke to them yesterday. They also have a Mackie DL32R with the Dante card and haven't had the problems we're seeing on this event, and at the previous gig.

I'm hoping someone from Mackie can chime in.

Thanks,
Michael

[WK154]

I stand corrected all Dante cards are dual (redundant hardware Ethernet connections) so it comes down to Mackie's implementation of that software. I would still use static IP to eliminate the overhead in a real time environment. You may also just have a defective Mackie Dante card.

[dpdan]

I suggest contacting Mackie directly with your dilema, not through this forum.
The folks at Mackie do not monitor this forum on a regular basis.

[msmithers]

So we got through yesterday's event with two iOS devices connected physically to the primary network using the "Apple camera adapter <-> USB hub <-> Apple USB Ethernet adapter" method. Not ideal but it was stable.

After some further searching, it appears our wifi woes might be specifically iOS10 related. There are a number of threads where folks describe stable iOS9 closed networks, that then had wifi connection problems after upgrading to iOS 10. Here's one example.
https://discussions.apple.com/thread/7705927?start=0&tstart=0

Apparently iOS 10 is far more keen to get to
     http://captive.apple.com/library/test/success.html
to verify internet access, and will drop the current wifi network to look for better options.

I don't have solid solutions yet, but I think we're heading in the right direction.

Cheers,
Michael
 

[msmithers]

I set up the whole system back at home and had some success with the following.
- Changed the Airport Express to "DCHP Only" with a range of 10.1.1.2 to 10.1.1.200.
- Changed the Airport Express router address to 10.1.1.1
- Set all the Airport Express "Status Messages" to "Ignore this issue"
- Rebooted all devices
- Reconnected all iOS devices to the Wifi

At this point all the iOS devices stopped showing "No Internet Connection" on the Wifi screen. (The "No Internet Connection" appears to be linked to the Airport Express status messages, so setting them to "ignore," I think, is crucial.)

So far the "Master Fader" app has stayed connected, from all iOS devices, even after a few hours.

In the Dante Controller, all the devices have primary addresses in the 10.1.1.x range (as expected) and have secondary addresses in the 172.31.x.x range.

[dpdan]

you are correct, the express messages do indeed need to be set to "ignore"
Since there is no internet access.

I was going to mention this after reading your detailed first post but realized,,,,

Dan, (that's me) this guy does not need your help

[msmithers]

>> Dan, (that's me) this guy does not need your help

Is this meant for someone else?