Mackie DL32R + Yamaha HS8 + Pro Tools loudness

[jayceeaz]

I didn't see any recent posts I could hijack so I will start my own. I am at my wits end, folks. Scoured the interwebs but when searching for anything "Mackie DL32R" I only get pages of ads and links to DL32R specs, and no support / helpful communities... so forgive me if this is out of bounds.

My story starts with buying the Mackie DL32R in 2015, hooking it up to my (then) windows USB 2.0 port, configuring all the I/O accordingly and getting Pro Tools Out 1/2 to send sound to Mackie's USB 1 & 2 via the AUX 13/14 (still with me?) that then go to my main amp. Back in 2015, I would have a Master channel in Pro Tools set to 0.0 dB as you would expect, and the sound going into my (then) reference amplifier was nominal - a decent listening volume.

Since then, in 2016 I picked up 2 Yamaha HS8 powered speakers (they sound amazing, btw) and replaced the reference amp with these 2 speakers. Now the Mackie 13/14 come out to the 2 speakers, and on the back of the Yamaha's the volume knob is set at center - where it "clicks" into a position. When this new setup was put into place, things sounded great. Again, Pro Tools Master channel was still 0.0 dB.

Leap forward to 2017 or so, literally "one day" I turned all my gear on (Mackie->Pro Tools->HS8->anySynth) and hit play - and almost was blasted off my chair against the far wall. The volume was SO LOUD I thought I blew up the HS8s. Granted, nothing changed far as I knew except MAYBE a Mackie Master Fader update/firmware to the DL32R, and certainly a newer version of Pro Tools at some point. But this was, as I said, 1 day to the next. The only thing that could have updated in that time would be Master Fader app on my iPad.

Since this change, I have had to either turn the HS8 volume knob so far down it's almost OFF (one more millimeter and the volume is off, not exaggerating). Or, I have to set Pro Tools Master channel to -32 dB to not blast my ears out. If it matters, the tracks I am playing back in Pro Tools generally hover betwen -10 db and -3 dB when doing a final mix/mastering.

The nasty side affect of this is when I "forget" the master channel is at -32 dB and bouce to file to send out somewhere, the person receiving it cannot hear anything so it's become a part of my workflow to set that back to 0.0 dB, bounce, and (hopefully) remember to set the fader back to -32... as you can imagine, this is a big, giant pain in the arse.

In an attempt to rule out a few things:
- I plugged my Kronos L/R out directly into the HS8 TRS and set the speakers to 50% volume again; sounds fine, great volume to listen at.
- I removed the Mackie DL32R from the chain and used my old Digidesign 003 interface, and output from Pro Tools via direct out to speakers -or- Monitor channel (with the pot) and again, volumes are fine.
- I've recorded tracks at -18 dB or less, and while they do not blast my ears out during the mixing process, when it comes time to bring it up to the sweet spot, I'm again overwhelmed with sound.
- I've even rolled Pro Tools back to 11.xx to see if it was their HD Audio changes but it's all in the Mackie, pretty positive.


The very last thing I just did before writing this post, was turn on the Mackie, the HS8s, and load a Show with all channels set to 0.0 dB across the board. In the Master Fader app, the ONLY routes on the Output matrix is AUX 13 -> USB1, AUX 14 -> USB 2 (per usual)

Even sitting idle without any playback, the HS8s are screaming a hiss loud enough to hear across the room. Putting my ear up to it, it's very loud, clearly overdriven by something... so I started tapping MUTE on all the 32 channels in the Master Fader app. One by one, muting the channels lowered the hiss. I was shocked. No channels have any added gain, no compressor or EQ or FX (it doesn't play back through Pro Tools anyway) so imagine my surprise.

Furthermore, with every single thing muted (even all the Matrix channels in EACH matrix) I still hear the super-loud audio coming from Pro Tools on USB 1 & 2. This is where I gave up trying to understand what's going on and came here to you, hopefully someone can tell me "oh, you forgot to _____"





Lastly, there is one more piece of evidence that may exhonorate the DL32R; and that is if I output another Master channel from Pro Tools to AUX 9/10, USB 3/4 and feed that into my Crown XLS2000 amp to PA speakers - volume is acceptably loud - but the Crown amp volume knobs are set to 40% usually. No sense breaking my windows. It seems to ONLY be output to the HS8's that have become a problem, as I said, "all of a sudden, one day". And it' been years, so I apologize for not having a memory of upgrading firmware; though I want to say I started in Master Fader 3 in 2014, and this is MF 4.6.2.

Anyhow, if you painfully read all that, thank you. If you have any advice, thank you even more. Otherwise, it's 1% HS8 volume for me
Jc

[WK154]

Welcome Jc to the forum. To simplify this let's start with a baseline. I don't own a DL32R and probably never will but basic troubleshooting in most probability is all you need here. So let's start with removing all safes and then load snapshot 0. This should end you with pre's as input and eliminate any routing issues. Remove USB cable to computer at mixer end.  Check for noise with this. Switch input to B (USB) route USB1 & 2 to Aux 13 &14 and check for noise. I am assuming that you don't have a dBu/voltmeter or scope here. Plug in USB cable and check for noise.  Noise here may indicate ground loop or defective cable. If none of these give you noise at you normal settings then problem solved, otherwise it's a internal DL32 problem. A sine wave signal through the mixer would probably narrow down the problem but it would require a scope. Meters may help if indicating clipping level on LR. or your aux 13 & 14 output. Before sending DL32 for repair I would reload the firmware (forced update). Need some input for further help.

[jayceeaz]

If none of these give you noise at you normal settings then problem solved, otherwise it's a internal DL32 problem.

Thank you WK154 for the welcome and the reply. I have done most all of that troubleshooting since the problem began, for sure - including removing any connectivity to the PC/Mac (which btw, started on a Windows 10 PC, but I moved to my iMac in an effort to see if it was the computer, Pro Tools load, or some other driver issue; same, exact on both computers).

I have also nuked all saves and even deleted all snapshots in an effort to "start from scratch". Once again, the problem of overly loud audio output from the Mackie DL32R wasn't there one day, and was there the next - and I do blame a software upgrade, but I do not know how to "go backwards" in firmware. Probably a call to Mackie is in my future.

It's not a total showstopper - because of course I can always bring my master down to -30dB and not blow up my HS8's... just seems odd I should have to do that all of a sudden like.

One thing you mentioned I have not tried is using input B (USB). I have always used input A, and the returns from PT are from USB 1 & 2 to Aux 13/14. I'll certainly give additional attempts, because I am not one to be defeated by inanimate objects

Thank you again!
Jc

[nedorama]

I do not know how to "go backwards" in firmware. Probably a call to Mackie is in my future.

I'd start with Page 8 of the manual, and delete the app from your device and reinstall and force a firmware update.

[jayceeaz]

Well I'll be dipped. That's what that little button on the DL32R does? While it does not appear to allow me to force a specific version (what really does these days?) I did nuke the app from my iPad (thus all Shows, Snapshots and years worth of screwing up the I/O myself ) and forced the firmware update. With the DL32R not connected to the PC in any way (standalone mixer), I tested out some general loudness I can always count on - that being, my Korg Kronos SE / Combi / Katje's House - that is guaranteed to reduce my speakers to confetti easily.



While still "louder than expected", I will say it was reasonably loud - I believe the HS8's may also be more powerful than I give them credit for... but the key here is, it was not SO loud that it was distorting the speakers like before (fyi, the DL32R meters never even clip into yellow, let alone red, even before, which is why this was such a mystery). DL32R metering still looks the same, so I went over to Pro Tools to do a good end-to-end test.

I followed this guide to nuke (again) years worth of "bad bussing" on my part and get a legit starting point (How do I trash my Pro Tools preferences?) Started Pro Tools with the "N" button to select my interface and before loading even a blank session, I went to I/O and blew everything away that was there. THEN created a New, blank, 48k/24bit blank session.

In here, i merely inserted a Master channel, pointing to my USB 1&2 (which I routed to Aux 9/10 for my studio monitors) and added an Aux channel, In: the Kronos, Out 1-2. No plugins, no routing other than direct out yet. Hit that trigger key for Katje's House and again, speaker cones stayed inside their housing. So far, so good!

• One thing I will note here, the DL32R meters for channel 17/18 (linked) show an almost 0dB peak with the Kronos at 50% volume, which is where I usually run it to have some "breathing room". However, in Pro Tools, taking input via USB 17/18, the Sample Peak meters stay around -14dB, which I also think is good for leaving some headroom, but thought that was only for digital I/O (?)

So the reason for that note above is, this is where I think things go off the rails for me. When mixing multitracks down (and I could be wrong about this) but I thought the idea was to get as close to 0dB summed across all tracks in the master out - and THIS is where the loudness comes back, crushing all my hopes and aspirations that I am a decent sound engineer


(no judging, this is just to show me trying to get the out 1-2 within a reasonable level )

As you see, where i have to put Master is the upper limit of my ears tolerance in the room. So even with all this effort, I do believe maybe it's just the HS8's power? Maybe I am confusing studio setups thinking they were ever not this loud...

But thank you both for your time on this topic, regardless. If anything, I learned how to clear everything out and start from scratch because things really were kinda messy. Sincerely, thank you for your advice.


PS: I guess one outstanding question (for anyone who may know) might be why the input from the DL32R signal level does not match what I see in Pro Tools. Perhaps therein lies another issue. Meaning, the DL32R shows 0dB minimal peaking on Channel and Master, while PT for the same signal shows -14 or less. Maybe that's normal?

Thank you again.

[WK154]

I'm glad we could help. As to the metering, well everybody including Mackie has their own idea about what it should be. You probably don't want to open that can of worms. Gain staging is also another issue not many pay attention to as long as adjustments are there to get in range (ie DL32 to HS8 input attenuation). Manufacturers are reluctant to give you realistic values or for that matter comply with some of the standards for this.

P.S. The short answer is you don't have a problem. The lack of an enforced standard is the problem.

[WK154]

Let me cite your setup, a DL32 and a pair of HS8's. The output max on the DL32 is 21dBu and the input to the HS8 for max power is 4 dBu on the +4 position. I'm making some assumptions here in that the max output on the DL32 is achieved with the fader at +10 and a signal sufficient to max the meters L&R. A dBu meter would help here.  Now you wouldn't operate at that level and would like to see L&R at 0 or less. That means the output would be 11dBu still too hot for the HS8 at +4dBu. So you now have a choice of attenuating the signal at the mixer (L&R fader) or the HS8 end. If your cable run is long I would opt for attenuation at the HS8 end (potential noise would be less %). You need another 7dBu of attenuation in any case. The whole point of this gain staging is to prevent you from operating out of the equipment range (distortion area). Needless to say the inputs (mics) should be at max possible for minimum noise. Digital input should be similarly apportioned with what ever max input is (remember there is a trim function in the USB input on the DL32). Most amps are rated at +4 dBu for max power, a de-facto standard. It doesn't mean they will drop of a cliff but you will be in distortion or worst eventual thermal shutdown if you exceed max.

A great resource for all this confusion is:   http://www.sengpielaudio.com/Calculations03.htm
specifically conversions:    http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-db-volt.htm

[Weogo]

Hi jayceeaz,

A simple point:
Typically, you want good, strong signals through all the devices in your signal path, and
turn down the last thing, your amp, to get the volume you want.
It's perfectly fine to turn the inputs on the Yamaha speakers down to a fairly low level so they aren't blowing you out of the room.
This will give you the best S/N, signal to noise ratio.

Thanks and good health,  Weogo

[jayceeaz]

Some if the most helpful and useful information on the entire internet, right here. I literally have "googled" for months, maybe years, to find the simple explanations you all have provided here. Seriously, thank you so much for your insights.

It's perfectly fine to turn the inputs on the Yamaha speakers down to a fairly low level so they aren't blowing you out of the room.

I have been running HS8's at "a smidge above zero" for a while now, and while that does work, I always felt I was losing some of what made a reference monitor, reference But working the way I am today, if I "forget" to turn the PT12 master channel down after a Bounce to Disk and hit that space bar... Whamo!! I am across the room bleeding from the ears

Thank you again, I'll continue to run at low HS8 and normal PT Masters. In the end, I guess it really doesn't matter. Just thought maybe I was missing something in signal routing on the DL32R maybe.

Take care all, have a wonderful holiday season. Happy 2020!
Jc