Author Topic: docked iPad loses sync  (Read 113637 times)

WK154

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Re: docked iPad loses sync
« Reply #195 on: September 22, 2014, 03:16:19 AM »
Kevin there are no 1.8V parts AFAIK so it's all 3.3V. You hit the nail on the head when you said " A smart HW engineer will load up the PCB with every circuit that marketing might need for the next 5 years." Unfortunately features such as 10/100 Ethernet controller, part of the Blackfin feature set were not used instead a SMCS 8710A was used duplicating hardware. SD interface exists unfortunately without a redesign you'll never see it. The Blackfin is quite capable of USB V2.0 high speed rates and once again it was dummed down to an outdated V1.1. That may be recoverable with a paddle board mod to properly handle USB and software mods. In general it's a poor design by my standards. Proper ground planes are lacking and I no doubt could go on and on. That's just the hardware. They most likely self certified the CE but they'd better have the FCC cert. unless their looking for another fine in the US. I covered this subject a while ago from the standpoint that they may be close to a USB charging spec. Here is a section of that.
" Are you looking for a means of charging offline (DCP = Dedicated Charging Port which Apple already supplies) or are you looking for a means to charge the iPad while in operation CDP (Charging Downstream Port)? The 2010 1.2 Battery charging spec for USB has many options. Do companies go outside the spec? The answer is NO except for Apple ( remember Apple only claims to be able to hook up with USB 2 devices and certainly is not USB certified). The limits on a CDP is 1.5 amps but you will be hard pressed to find any because the limit is the induced noise on ground for charging current ( sect 3.5 of the spec which limits it to 375mV). The Spec itself would actually allow up to 5 amps but it would exceed the 1.5amp limit imposed for each standard port. Once you exceed the limit you have 3 shutdown choices one of which is to provide constant current output (up to the safety limit of 5 amps). Does anyone make a device like this in volume? Again the answer is NO not even Apple. The best you could hope for is .9 amps for a USB 3 port but the USB 3 ID process would most likely drop you back to .5amps USB 2 on a CDP. If you are looking for a offline charging unit you already own one. It is well known that USB 2 ports will charge iPads even  if the iPad  states it's "not charging". Since Apple really doesn't state any conformance to USB it's hard to come to any conclusion other than by trial and error.
It appears that Mackie may have wanted to stay close to the battery charging spec (max 1.5 amps) but note the above noise limit(in red) which reduces it. If I remember back in V5 iOS days all was well with the charging circuit, then Apple fixed the problem and a lot fell apart after that. ;D
« Last Edit: September 23, 2014, 06:18:24 PM by WK154 »
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Kevin

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Re: docked iPad loses sync
« Reply #196 on: September 22, 2014, 04:02:19 AM »
Kevin there are no 1.8V parts AFAIK so it's all 3.3V.
Gotcha, I looked up LP3853 and saw it mostly in 1.8v circiuits, I didnt realize that there is a 3.3v version of this regulator also with same number.

The real question is what switcher is the iPad charging circuit using? Is anyone willing to crack their case to determine what part this is?

Kevin

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Re: docked iPad loses sync
« Reply #197 on: September 22, 2014, 11:37:01 AM »
for now i am using a 3 foot extension with the 5V power line severed, ipad 3 fully charged before a gig. this is working OK, but i wish there was a firmware fix available from Mackie. you listening, Mackie?

This may also be a viable workaround for anyone who has an iPad with a fading battery and experiencing the sync problem while docked: get a cheap 30 pin extension cable and cut the 5v power line. You will still probably need to charge the iPad before every gig, but now you will be able to use all of the battery capacity without triggering the DL's noisy charge circuit if you need to dock the unit.

I dont think we are going to see a firmware fix for this any time soon. The problem may well be in IOS, not MF. When I saw this problem using extension cables, when the problem occurred, all programs running were effected, not just MF. The noise may be sending IOS's USB driver into the weeds, which then causes problems for all programs that are using data. Stopping the noise at the source will probably be a lot easier and can be likely be accomplished sooner.

Kevin

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Re: docked iPad loses sync
« Reply #198 on: September 22, 2014, 01:49:42 PM »
They most likely self certified the CE but they'd better have the FCC cert. unless their looking for another fine in the US.

Maybe, although self cert for CE is still a lot of work to perform and then certify the results of many tests. I'd be willing to bet that whoever did the CE cert testing, it was done with a fully charged iPad. If the DL's fast charging circuit is noisy enough to cause data errors in the USB lines, then I suspect that the DL would not pass the EMC tests while doing fast charge. IE with a iPad that has a low state of charge. If an aggressive competitor wanted to cause trouble for Mackie in Europe, they could replicate the problem (not difficult, just run down the iPad's battery) and prove it fails EMC tests. That could result in an injunction on selling until Mackie fixes the problem. It seems it would be in their best interest to get on top of this and reduce the noise in their fast charge circuit

WK154

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Re: docked iPad loses sync
« Reply #199 on: September 22, 2014, 04:29:09 PM »
Before anyone cracks open their case consider this. We know that recording or playback continue to function once sync is declared lost. This would indicate that the charging circuit has no part in USB data transfer disruption. The determination of sync is made by MF code. What indicators are used to determine this are at the heart of the problem. This is done over another set of communication lines Rx (13), Tx (12), and its ground (11) via the famous Mandolin protocol. The status for this is Apple provided or possibly DL charging logic, but as I stated before the final decision is MF's.
 One note on the cable requirements for the USB lines, the spec requires shielded twisted pair for the half duplex differential data lines. That doesn't mean a shield on the overall cable which is what most extension have. More important what is the shield tied to. It should be tied to chassis ground to be effective. The internal Mackie cable shield is tied to that confusing (29, 30) with the 166 ohm series resistor going to the iPad's Firewire ground as I remember.
It's time for Mackie to come up with a solution.
Correction all communication is performed on the USB lines. Unfortunately Mackie ties shield and signal ground together at the paddle board, bad idea.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2015, 04:28:59 PM by WK154 »
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Kevin

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Re: docked iPad loses sync
« Reply #200 on: September 22, 2014, 05:00:45 PM »
Before anyone cracks open their case consider this. We know that recording or playback continue to function once sync is declared lost. This would indicate that the charging circuit has no part in USB data transfer disruption.

Not necessarily. Random noise causes random data errors. Recording and playback are streaming and may or may not be checking the data. If there are bit errors in your music, you may never hear them. Failure in a control message has a lot more consequences. Also, remember that another common bug is the 'white noise' issue, which would indicate that playback sometimes *does* get affected. Believe me, noisy power rails can cause all sorts of seemingly random problems. Usually the hard part is figuring out where the noise is coming from. Typically another component with a reactive load that causes a brief spike when it turns on. In this case, its pretty obvious that the 5v charging circuit gets noisy when it goes to constant current mode. There may be other sources of noise as well, but this is a pretty obvious one, and should be relatively straightforward to fix.

It's time for Mackie to come up with a solution.

Agreed. And if they carefully comb their control code, they can probably find places where they can and should improve their error detection and recovery. That could take a while and finding all of the vulnerabilities to corrupted data is a neverending task. OTOH, swapping out a coil and cap can be done by the weekend, even allowing for a couple days to get parts from digikey or mouser.

Keyboard Magic

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Re: docked iPad loses sync
« Reply #201 on: September 22, 2014, 05:17:36 PM »
We want to be optimistic that Mackie will do something to address current issues plaguing quite a few DL1608 owners, but if we haven’t seen patches, hardware fixes or updates released yet, are we going to? You kind of get the feeling that Mackie is hoping that all the current dissatisfied owners of the 1608 will be ready and willing to trade up to the DL32. Case solved for Mackie. They really don’t have to do a thing.

Ah, pessimism.  :P
« Last Edit: September 22, 2014, 05:22:43 PM by Keyboard Magic »
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WK154

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Re: docked iPad loses sync
« Reply #202 on: September 22, 2014, 06:31:19 PM »
Kevin I don't disagree with what your saying but like me I was led to believe that we are dealing with engineers that have some idea of convention. Running the charge current + in cable A along with USB +/- data along with the Firewire ground and then putting the USB power return in another cable B along with the a fore mentioned Rx, Tx, Gnd defies convention. I have chased noise problems for large part of my career and found it elusive and in the least likely places. I however don't believe that Mackie split up the "command and control" to two different paths (actually 3 since Ethernet is another path). The USB lines are just for streaming audio in my estimation. It doesn't matter what error correction if any  they may apply. As you stated it will most likely not be noticed until the data turns into the high frequency junk that has been noticed. Silence would have been a better choice. So maybe in their USB data transfer process they can check for this problem, then again their code may have gone tits up. Looking at the Mandolin communication ( command and control) which is layered on top of Apples serial protocol is where we should be focusing. Again error handling in this area is what I believe is the source of the sync problem. Hardware fixes aren't going to help this unless you can prevent the transition to the 0.5 amp charge which would be the limit trigger >1.5 amps which it apparently reaches at 80% battery level. Redesigning their charging circuit is over the top. My view it's "substandard" equipment in a system.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2014, 06:33:39 PM by WK154 »
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Kevin

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Re: docked iPad loses sync
« Reply #203 on: September 22, 2014, 07:54:51 PM »
Kevin I don't disagree with what your saying but like me I was led to believe that we are dealing with engineers that have some idea of convention. Running the charge current + in cable A along with USB +/- data along with the Firewire ground and then putting the USB power return in another cable B along with the a fore mentioned Rx, Tx, Gnd defies convention.

Yeah, it would be nice to have a service manual with some schematics, so that we can see what is really going on here.

So maybe in their USB data transfer process they can check for this problem, then again their code may have gone tits up. Looking at the Mandolin communication ( command and control) which is layered on top of Apples serial protocol is where we should be focusing. Again error handling in this area is what I believe is the source of the sync problem.

I'm a contract engineer (HW/FW) and get pulled into problems like this every few months or so, across a fairly wide range of products. Yes the SW/FW is usually to blame to some extent, but most SW/FW is written with the expectation that the hardware 'just works', especially in consumer devices. I'm not saying that Mackie and Apple dont need to fix their SW/FW, but when a product starts having intermittent problems and customers are canceling orders, there is usually not a lot of time to do cleanup passes on the code. You often need to break out a scope and start stressing the unit to find out why it doesnt 'just work' and then make it 'just work' Then you can (and should) clean up the code in the next SW/FW rev.

I cannot imagine any client with intermittent problems that are losing them customers, and that even suspects that they have a noisy power rail issue, would think about solving the problem by throwing SW/FW at it. Not in the short term anyway.


Hardware fixes aren't going to help this unless you can prevent the transition to the 0.5 amp charge which would be the limit trigger >1.5 amps which it apparently reaches at 80% battery level.

Might not be a bad approach

Redesigning their charging circuit is over the top.

I'm not talking about redesigning their charger circuit. I'm talking about cleaning it up a bit so it isnt so noisy. Depending on the circuit, it might not be so hard to do. I've had to clean up power supplies a few times before to solve problems very similar to this. Assuming the original design was in the ballpark, it usually just requires some extra filtering, which if you are lucky can be done without having to change the PCB. Just some BOM changes. Capacity issues are tougher and usually do require a layout change and hand mods until that can happen.

WK154

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Re: docked iPad loses sync
« Reply #204 on: September 22, 2014, 08:20:36 PM »

I'm not talking about redesigning their charger circuit. I'm talking about cleaning it up a bit so it isnt so noisy. Depending on the circuit, it might not be so hard to do. I've had to clean up power supplies a few times before to solve problems very similar to this. Assuming the original design was in the ballpark, it usually just requires some extra filtering, which if you are lucky can be done without having to change the PCB. Just some BOM changes. Capacity issues are tougher and usually do require a layout change and hand mods until that can happen.

This is were I have to disagree. The charge circuit and the limiter are doing their job unfortunately when the current reaches the limit (1.5 amps) it goes into constant current mode at .5 amps. This event triggers software status and like domino's bad things happen. Noise is there from 100% to 80% (several hrs.) without causing a problem, but the switch not caused by noise but by the limiter starts the problem loss of sync. A bad software design decision. Mackie may use that transition indication to start looking for the 1.3 - 1.5 amp current to reconnect which it may never see. At least that's my viewpoint. Not having schematics and code sucks. Software mods are much quicker and cost the client nothing and in my days was a lot faster.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2014, 08:29:25 PM by WK154 »
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Kevin

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Re: docked iPad loses sync
« Reply #205 on: September 22, 2014, 08:37:08 PM »
We want to be optimistic that Mackie will do something to address current issues plaguing quite a few DL1608 owners, but if we haven’t seen patches, hardware fixes or updates released yet, are we going to? You kind of get the feeling that Mackie is hoping that all the current dissatisfied owners of the 1608 will be ready and willing to trade up to the DL32. Case solved for Mackie. They really don’t have to do a thing.

Ah, pessimism.  :P

Being an optimist, I think that Beno and the Mackie engineers really want to fix this.

Being a realist, I understand that management generally doesnt like to spend money on engineering unless they think they can make stupid money, or they think there is a risk of losing stupid money. Which actually makes me more optimistic about them solving this particular problem.

Why - because they are clearly aware that they are having intermittent problems. Maybe not yet big problems, but the older everyone's iPad get, the more these problems will be reported, and that could lose them stupid money in the long term. Further, I think there is at least an even chance that their noisy iPad charging circuit could cause them to fail a couple of the CE EMC Directive tests. If WK154 is right that Mackie did self certification for CE and an aggressive competitor (*cough* Uli *cough*) calls them out for sloppy EMC testing, Mackie could say goodby to ever doing self cert again, as well as hold up CE for the DL32 by many months. That would be short term stupid money.

So I think we should have both Mackie's better angels and their worse ones on our side for this particular problem

Not having schematics and code sucks.

Yeah, I still have the service manual for my old 24VLZ board, even though I sold the board a couple years ago. Thanks in large part to that manual, I got something like 15years of good use from that board.

You may be right about the charge circuit not being as easy to sort out as I would expect. Presumably Mackie does have both schematics and code, and should be able fix this. I suspect that the schematics will be more useful than the code in this respect, but time will tell.

Keyboard Magic

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Re: docked iPad loses sync
« Reply #206 on: September 23, 2014, 12:15:53 AM »
Kevin,

Like most of the forum has suggested many times, Mackie should, (not with this platform of course) open up the control medium to other devices besides iOS, such as Windows, Mac and Android (can you say Behringer X18 concept, etc.) This would guarantee better Market Share, less wasted money and give consumers more flexibility. We might all end up being happy campers once more. Of course this could also be solved by moving to another manufacturers product too. (that last was written with tongue in cheek)  :P

Maybe the DL32 will solve some or most of their current issues. Gleaning from the very non revealing video on the upcoming DL32, it looks like they've borrowed some design features from the X32 Rack like total wireless control, thus eliminating sync and white noise issues. This is only conjecture on my part until more is revealed hopefully next month.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2014, 03:41:18 PM by Keyboard Magic »
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WK154

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Re: docked iPad loses sync
« Reply #207 on: September 23, 2014, 06:46:10 PM »
Kevin which are you?
"
Being an optimist, I think that Beno and the Mackie engineers really want to fix this.

Being a realist, I understand that management generally doesn't like to spend money on engineering unless they think they can make stupid money, or they think there is a risk of losing stupid money. Which actually makes me more optimistic about them solving this particular problem."


I'm a Realist who tells it like it is which makes me a Pessimist in today's "politically correct" world. But guess what I won't do, change. So in that frame of reference I prefer to evaluate Mackie on their past performance ( reality and facts) instead of trying to play the Stock Market with them (risky futures).

KM putting on my System Engineering hat I see nothing wrong with your
 " Of course this could also be solved by moving to another manufacturers product too. (that last was written with tongue in cheek)  :P
"

 It's what I already have done since 11/13.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2014, 07:15:09 PM by WK154 »
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Keyboard Magic

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Re: docked iPad loses sync
« Reply #208 on: September 23, 2014, 07:18:42 PM »
WK;

KM putting on my System Engineering hat I see nothing wrong with your
 " Of course this could also be solved by moving to another manufacturers product too. (that last was written with tongue in cheek) 
"
 It's what I already have done since 11/13.


Couldn't agree more.  :lol:
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Kevin

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Re: docked iPad loses sync
« Reply #209 on: October 01, 2014, 11:58:28 PM »
I posted this earlier today on the "white noise" thread. Posting here for those who might be following this thread separately. Apologies to those who have already read this:

Here are some measurements of the charge cycle for an 18 mo old Gen 3 iPad, with the DL1608, and Apple 10W and 12W chargers

To measure current from the DL, I popped the plastic housing off my old Patazon 3ft 30 pin cable, cut back about an inch of the jacket in order to separate out the red usb power wire (pin 23) and measured it with a current clamp meter (accurate to 1% and calibrated a few months ago).  Voltage readings were from Pin 23 to 15.

http://imgur.com/DQ6fL70

Under no load, the DL puts out 5.01v

With the iPad battery completely discharged, so that the iPad is unable to boot, the DL puts out 0.48A (dumb USB mode) and voltage drops a bit to 4.94v. Interestingly both the 10W and 12W apple chargers put out about 1A in this mode, and have a lot more of a voltage drop (~4.2v)

When the battery gets to 2 percent charge (so that the iPad is just barely able to boot), the current from the DL goes to 2.01A and the voltage drops to 4.69v. I put a scope on pin 23, expecting to see a sawtooth waveform on top of the rail, with a spike on the rising edge, but it actually looked pretty clean, with a solid 4.7v rail (I'm still not sure I believe this though, and might try to borrow a better scope for further testing).

At this point, the apple 10W charger was putting out 1.03A @4.21v and the 12W was putting out 1.05A at 4.24v. This is the most current that they put out during the whole charge cycle, and is only about half of what they should be able to produce. In order to measure these, I had to plug them through the 3 ft Patazon cable, so the total charge cable length was about 6 feet. That could have caused them to cut their current back, although the iPad did display "charging". If I can find an extra iPad charging cable, I might open one up like I did the Patazon and see how these two chargers work when there is only 3 feet of cable

The DL continued to put out about 2 amps until the battery was somewhere between 50 and 65 percent (I wasnt watching it closely enough to see exactly where it went into CV mode). By 65 percent, the current had cut back to 1.85A and it slowly dropped until it got to 1.50A at 95 percent - which is where things started to get a little strange.

At 95 percent, I was still seeing dropouts with MF, which was unusual. Then, while playing with MF, the SOC went straight from 95 to 100 percent in a blink. Next, when unplugging and re-plugging the cable to get my synch back, the current from the DL dropped from 1.50A to 0.89A, at which point I had a solid connection.  Unplugging and re-plugging the 30 pin cable, sometimes I would get ~1.5A, in which case MF could not keep the synch and sometimes I would get ~0.90A and have a solid connection.

What is probably going on here is that when the iPad first displays 100%, it is not really at 100%. This has been documented elsewhere. In reality, the battery is still halfway down the CV curve. It turns out that 0.89A is the current draw for my iPad running MF when the battery is completely charged. So at this point, the iPad's charger is having trouble deciding what to do. Plug the cable in once and the iPad thinks it still should be charging and pulls 1.5A. Plug it in again and it thinks the charging is done and just pulls what it needs to run the iPad. All the time, the battery display is 100%.

By this point it was getting late, so I disconnected the iPad from the charging cable and left it sitting overnight. The next morning it was at 97 percent and when I ran MF, it almost immediately dropped to 93 percent. That was not too surprising since it didnt really charge to a full 100 percent the night before (even though the display said it did). What was very strange though is that now when I plugged the iPad into the DL, it was only drawing 16mA, which is much less than the current needed to power the unit. The 10W and 12W apple chargers were only supplying 7mA and 8mA respectively, so this appeared to be an iPad issue, not a DL issue.  During this time MF would not synch at all, even though I would normally have no problems at 93 percent. Then, to make matters more confusing, the battery indicator ticked up to 94 percent. It was impossible that the battery could actually be charging because the iPad needs ~0.8A just to stay on and the DL was only putting out 16mA.  I then played some music through the iPad speakers, just to use more power and let it go for about an hour. During this time, the battery level crept up to 100 percent again, even though the most the iPad ever pulled was 17mA. Over the course of an hour with the iPad's display on and music playing, the actual battery charge would have dropped by about 3-4Whr - even though the indicator said it was charging! So clearly the iPad charging logic has some issues. At the end of the hour, I checked the iPad draw from the Apple chargers again, and they were still only putting out 7-8mA. I powered the iPad down and back up again and same thing. Unit displays 100 percent, and only draws a few mA from the DL or either Apple charger. This looks to me like some sort of bug in the iPad's charging circuit, which happens right around the time that the battery display goes to the false 100 percent charge (but battery is still in the middle of the CV curve). In retrospect, I should have tried docking the iPad to see if it had any effect. I might try this again to see if I can replicate it. I suspect that when the iPad gets into this mode - right at the onset of the "false 100 percent" charge, the iPad can lock up in a state where it wont synch to the DL and wont take a charge. This appears to be the iPad's issue, not the DLs. Running into this at a gig would really, really suck.

Next, I powered down the iPad and left it for an hour. When I powered it back on, the battery display was still at 100 percent, but the DL was putting out 1.5A again, so at least the iPad realized that it was supposed to be in CV mode and was drawing a reasonable current. I let the iPad go to sleep mode, at which point the charge current went to 0.87A and tapered down to 0.22A over 90 minutes. After 3hrs, it reached what seems to be a steady 0.11A.

At this point, the DL and iPad went back to being their old normal selves again. Power draw from the DL was about 0.8A to 1A while MF was running and MF had no problems keeping synch with other programs running. However playing around with the setup some more, I realized that "normal" is not quite what I thought it was.

It turns out that keeping MF from dropping out is not really so much of having the battery fully charged, but keeping the current draw from the DL below about 1.2A (for which a full battery is needed). If I increased the brightness of the iPad display to about 3/4, I would get periodic drop outs, and at full bright (about 1.5A), it wont hold synch at all. No problems at default and lower brightness settings.  Even my 6 ft Cable Jive cable (normally rock solid at full charge) drops out after about 15 min at full brightness on a fully charged battery. The 2ft Cable Jive has no problems at full bright (or any other condition that I've run into so far).

That's about all I have time for this week and still a lot of open questions, but I figured I'd throw these results up to see if anyone else has some insight as to what might be going on.

TLDR: Looks to me like the problem(s) might be with power distribution on the iPad, but further testing is needed. In the meantime, if you are having disconnect problems, make sure that the iPad battery is fully charged (not just displaying 100 percent - give it a good 2 hours of charge time after it gets to 100 percent). If you are still having problems and dont want to hack a 30 pin cable, try reducing your display brightness and see if that helps