Author Topic: DL Preamp A/D D/A Limits  (Read 7896 times)

WK154

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DL Preamp A/D D/A Limits
« on: February 25, 2014, 02:06:09 AM »
RR you had to ask! Well rather than dump it into meters although related I started a new thread just for the gain structure within the DL. Normally one would just be dealing with gain structure between external equipment but it also pertains to the internals of a piece of gear. In analog one of the concerns was clipping on the mix bus (CR1604 myths has some keeping input levels low to prevent the mix buss from clipping).
So to the rescue comes the Behringer EU1202 mixer with a output spec of 22 dBu as a input source to the DL which is supposed to be good to 21 dBu. The first thing of course is to check out the signal source (EU1202) to avoid garbage in garbage out issues. It passed all the way and a little beyond 22 dBu certainly enough for the DL's 21 dBu. So what happens when we put a 21 dBu signal on the input of the DL?  That's a sine wave with a RMS value of 8.69 V at 1kHz . Since we needed to see the output of the A/D converter we had to have the ability to measure it's output. Well the iPad audio-stream out bypasses both the D/A converter and the output circuitry. I have AudioTools from Studio 6 and it has a scope that looks at the audio-stream out, how convenient. Judging from the sine wave form it barely makes the 21dBu before distortion (visual not measured but plainly visible). OK so the input is to spec but no margin. With both the faders at 0 what is the output? All of 5.15V RMS or 16.5dBu. The waveform looks fine. We know we can get more output so what happened. Let's work this backwards set main fader to max (10) let's see what it takes for clip/distortion. The output is maxed at 21.5dBu to cause clipping.  Well  we really don't have input devices this hot and the preamps were at unity gain so why not apply more real world input values such as the output of a SM58. At his point we will have to let the preamp do it's work and well look at how many dB it would take for clipping or distortion after the preamp/A/D chain. At -25 dBu input it takes 50dB to clip the A/D chain. I used -25dBu to cover most dynamic mics and screamers, other mics may be too hot (condensers). The output at (10) main fader is 21.5dBu the max again before clipping. Remember your music is not a sine wave so peaks will be OK.  The only instrument I know that produces sine wave music is a Armonica (a Ben Franklin invention) yes I do know about Fourier.  ::)
So what does this all mean. You can push you SM58 to the limit and be OK condensers not so much. But then you already knew all this just had no numbers from Mackie to place the limits.
Corrections applied.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2014, 05:54:37 AM by WK154 »
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RoadRanger

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Re: DL Preamp A/D D/A Limits
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2014, 03:19:04 AM »
In analog one of the concerns was clipping on the mix bus (CR1604 myths has some keeping input levels low to prevent the mix buss from clipping).
That was true of the first gen 1604's I don't remember which gen "fixed" that.

WK154

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Re: DL Preamp A/D D/A Limits
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2014, 03:21:57 AM »
In analog one of the concerns was clipping on the mix bus (CR1604 myths has some keeping input levels low to prevent the mix buss from clipping).
That was true of the first gen 1604's I don't remember which gen "fixed" that.
The VLZ series when they switched op-amps.
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Re: DL Preamp A/D D/A Limits
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2014, 03:26:45 AM »
The output is maxed at 15.5dBu to cause clipping.
Are you sure you weren't measuring one pin to ground? That would reduce the measured by 6 dB so the real would be the expected 21dB. Is the output meter tickling the red?

WK154

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Re: DL Preamp A/D D/A Limits
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2014, 03:32:56 AM »
Checked the cable and yes it was signal return. Thanks correction coming. Rechecked  voltages stands as original. Found the problem had to recheck cable and found 1&3 connected. Now were OK corrections reapplied.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2014, 05:41:27 AM by WK154 »
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Re: DL Preamp A/D D/A Limits
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2014, 03:47:05 AM »
Back to my original wondering if the preamps start to distort before the FS of the A/D, do you see that? I think I can hear it but am unsure.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2014, 01:44:17 PM by RoadRanger »

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Re: DL Preamp A/D D/A Limits
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2014, 05:00:03 AM »
Back to my original wondering if the preamps start to distort before the FS of the A/D, do you see that? I think I can hear it but am unsure.
Visual is all I can judge by but my original guess stands by the A/D clipping. I see no change in the peak shape prior to clip which would indicate the preamp's going non-linear.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2014, 01:44:57 PM by RoadRanger »
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Re: DL Preamp A/D D/A Limits
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2014, 01:48:42 PM »
Visual is all I can judge by but my original guess stands by the A/D clipping. I see no change in the peak shape prior to clip which would indicate the preamp's going non-linear.
Ah well, too bad - I think a lot of folks would prefer a more analog sound and it's nice to be able to "push" the pre's on the kick and bass vs using compression. But it's still an amazing sounding mixer :) .

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Re: DL Preamp A/D D/A Limits
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2014, 02:01:19 PM »
BTW I'm not sure what you were saying about a "typical" gain trim setting for a vocal mic but I've been using "noon" (+30dB) and that seems to work well. But that was somewhat based upon my thinkin' that the preamps had a graceful overload characteristic before the A/Ds clip.

Oh, and one "mistake" I see some folks making is setting the comps at some fixed threshold (I usually start at -17) and using the gain trim to set the amount of peak gain reduction (AKA mixing on the trims = no no bad soundguy!). You can do that in sound check but in the show you should go in and change the threshold if needed - that's what we did in the analog days. This is somewhat complicated if your inputs don't overload gracefully but even if you're seeing some red light peaking unless you can hear something bad slap that hand that keeps reaching for the gains LOL.

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Re: DL Preamp A/D D/A Limits
« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2014, 03:31:37 PM »
BTW i was thinking of getting this app to generate a signal I can loop back into an input (via an aux out) and also to see the output:
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/oscilloscope/id388636804
Is there a better/different/free one I should be looking at?

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Re: DL Preamp A/D D/A Limits
« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2014, 05:15:11 PM »
BTW i was thinking of getting this app to generate a signal I can loop back into an input (via an aux out) and also to see the output:
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/oscilloscope/id388636804
Is there a better/different/free one I should be looking at?
I just bought this one for $2 to play with, looks promising:
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/e-scope-3-in-1/id660574048

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Re: DL Preamp A/D D/A Limits
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2014, 06:07:22 PM »
Yep, here's the A/D hard clipping - using the app I just bought with output on aux 1 jumpered to the channel 16 input. Unfortunately this app doesn't "do" background audio so you can't use the signal generator unless the app is in the foreground, I'll see if the author is interested in "fixing" that :) . Oh, and the THD function is WAY cool 8) .
« Last Edit: February 25, 2014, 06:27:11 PM by RoadRanger »

WK154

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Re: DL Preamp A/D D/A Limits
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2014, 06:13:52 PM »
Nice finds haven't really looked for EE stuff since I have 3 scopes and generators plus the audio tools stuff. The Onyx (wonder what Mackie thinks of this?) looks more functional but it depends on what your trying to do.  How's your Japanese? More of a Swiss knife tools but for $2 sounds good to me.
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Re: DL Preamp A/D D/A Limits
« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2014, 06:28:17 PM »
Nice finds haven't really looked for EE stuff since I have 3 scopes and generators plus the audio tools stuff. The Onyx (wonder what Mackie thinks of this?) looks more functional but it depends on what your trying to do.  How's your Japanese? More of a Swiss knife tools but for $2 sounds good to me.
I don't think Onyx does FFT and THD measurements? (THD = 2.37% in lower left hand corner)
« Last Edit: February 25, 2014, 06:33:35 PM by RoadRanger »

WK154

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Re: DL Preamp A/D D/A Limits
« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2014, 06:38:45 PM »
When I said functional I meant as a scope for general EE work, The app you have is more audio oriented and more than a  scope.
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