Fluke or Good Luck? Hope for the DL?

[Keyboard Magic]

WK;

That makes sense. Thank you for the clarification. 

[WK154]

For those of you waiting for the X18 keep in mind that the initial software will be fairly rudimentary. There is no hint of more than a single layer of control, by that I mean no mute groups or DCA's or other fancy linking or routing as in the X32. That may change as competition forces their hand such as the QSC Touchmix or if Mackie finishes groups (DCA). Not unlike their analog mixer series in terms of functionality, just digital. Need more features go for a X32, or go Midas.

[robbocurry]

Need more features go for a X32, or go Midas.

.......or an Allen & Heath or a Soundcraft etc........ Might as well mention some of the good guys, "ahem".

[nottooloud]

Had to push through parents to get at the mic pre's on the DL quite a few times, even though they were set at optimal, or so I thought.

The main benefit of 24 bits in digital audio is that you really don't have to obsess over your gain structure. Turn them down at the trim, and make up the gain someplace else that you can remotely control, like in the dynamics. When the QSC Touchmix was announced, I was sad they didn't go with recallable head amps. After a few months of mixing shows in a laptop with Focusrite pres onstage, I no longer find it be a concern.

It's the same with multitrack 24 bit recording. I'm perfectly happy to have my channels peaking at -16dB. These systems are so clean and have so much headroom that you can just make it up. There's no reason to ever risk an over.

[WK154]

I thought you might enjoy this opinion on bit depth. This may also add a twist to the incessant request for digital adjustable preamps as a necessary feature to mix. Most pro's don't mix using preamp adjustments after initial sound check, that's what faders are for.
http://www.sonicscoop.com/2013/08/29/why-almost-everything-you-thought-you-knew-about-bit-depth-is-probably-wrong/

[Harpman]

I thought you might enjoy this opinion on bit depth. This may also add a twist to the incessant request for digital adjustable preamps as a necessary feature to mix. Most pro's don't mix using preamp adjustments after initial sound check, that's what faders are for.
http://www.sonicscoop.com/2013/08/29/why-almost-everything-you-thought-you-knew-about-bit-depth-is-probably-wrong/

My issue with the analog adjustable pre's is that they get knocked around during setup and tear down. Sometimes you have to adjust the preamps if you don't have enough headroom on the fader, but that should all be pretty close if you've done a good sound check. The reason I would love to have digital is to alleviate the knocked around issue.

[Wynnd]

My DL is rack mounted and sits under a lid unless being used.  I don't have a trim moving problem.  Not even considering the O-ring mod.

[yigba]

Perhaps it's just me but I for one don't want saved preamps. I always find dependent on the gig that the keyboard player, guitar player (me) or bass player invariably changes their volume during sound check. Saved preamp settings go out the window then.

[Greg C.]

Sometimes you have to adjust the preamps if you don't have enough headroom on the fader, but that should all be pretty close if you've done a good sound check. The reason I would love to have digital is to alleviate the knocked around issue.

I find a lot of acts are lazy during sound check and don't play/sing/hit drums as hard as they do when they hit the stage in front of people. I often have to back down trims for vocals, snare drums, even guitar and bass amps because they're hitting the strings harder and sometimes you start clipping inputs. There can be as much as a 10-20dB discrepancy between sound check and the actual performance on some inputs. You just don't know until it's show time. Good thing I use compression so it doesn't kill everyone when those instances pop up

[musicman7722]

Let's see a number of thoughts and comments.  First a disclaimer I am a bass player first, sound person second.  If I haven't said it lately I love the DL.  Sure I've looked at the X32 but only because it can be racked up but I haven't gone any further than catalog shopping.

I use the O ring trick and it helps a ton, my gains never move now unless I tell them to

As for gain settings, I find I need to run mine a bit hot if you will as the DL doesn't seem to put out as hot a signal to my amps as I'm used to.  One time my foh person was at a small gig that we did on our own.  I handed him my ipad and asked if he would do the levels for me.  After a song he walked over and turned a lot of my gains down and I noticed the fronts dropped terribly as did my IEM.  I think he mistook the occasional red line as a note that the gains were to hot.

Anyway just my thoughts and experiences.

All the best to this mixer.

CP

[Greg C.]

I handed him my ipad and asked if he would do the levels for me.  After a song he walked over and turned a lot of my gains down and I noticed the fronts dropped terribly as did my IEM.  I think he mistook the occasional red line as a note that the gains were to hot.

I think that the fact that Mackie chose to use main outputs that max out at +21dBu make the drive level for the amps seem weaker than their other mixers. On their other mixers where they're using active drivers for the hot and cold lines of the balanced outputs, the output levels were inherently 6dB hotter for a given level of input. So if you're comparing to one of those mixers with hotter output, the discrepancy is noticeable. But the aux sends have always been no more than +22dBu since they only use a driver on the hot line on all their mixers. That said, +21dBu should be plenty of drive for most situations. If you're having to drive your preamps to clip to get adequate levels for your IEMs and mains, you probably need to add some more gain after the mixer. The mains amps hopefully have a voltage gain adjustment to increase sensitivity. And I'd imagine the IEM system has a place to add more gain as well.

[musicman7722]

Thank you for your reply, I always find your comments very helpful and extremely knowledgeable.

Well before the DL I had a Presonus 16.0.2 and before that would have been Mackie 1604s and A&H Mix Wiz..

I should add that when I mix I run my ears off the headphone output, not the best way to do it but  I mostly use it to maintain my perceived impression of vocal balance as well as keys and flute which didn't use a stage amp.  But that band is dosolved so I moved on.

I find the aux outs are fine. 

Chris

[nottooloud]

the DL doesn't seem to put out as hot a signal to my amps as I'm used to. 

I started early on running my mains master fader all the way up, instead of at zero, since there wasn't a Mains mute and I wanted a totally repeatable position. Now there is a Mains mute, but that gain structure has held me in good stead. Plenty of output.

[Keyboard Magic]

This may be a noob question... I start out running the gains at the 12:00 position for initial set up on the DL and find the mics usually need quite a bit more. Can I safely push the gains up to the 3:00 position in most situations? Why I ask is I have never ever pushed any gains on any mixers past the 1:00 position to avoid distortion/clipping. Or what about "nottooloud's" method of running the Master volume hot?

I guess I could just try various methods if and when I get to run my school's DL again. 

[Greg C.]

This may be a noob question... I start out running the gains at the 12:00 position for initial set up on the DL and find the mics usually need quite a bit more. Can I safely push the gains up to the 3:00 position in most situations? Why I ask is I have never ever pushed any gains on any mixers past the 1:00 position to avoid distortion/clipping. Or what about "nottooloud's" method of running the Master volume hot?

I guess I could just try various methods if and when I get to run my school's DL again. 

You set the gains wherever they need to be to get proper gain structure. Don't get hung up on physical knob positions. Different sources need different amounts of gain. A loud snare or guitar amp will need far less gain than say a vocal mic, which will on average need more gain than most other inputs.