Author Topic: Feedback quandary  (Read 22955 times)

Harpman

  • Knight
  • ****
  • Location: Temecula, CA
  • Posts: 339
  • 的f music be the food of love, play on"
    • Stefani Entertainment
Re: Feedback quandary
« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2013, 05:05:21 PM »
The simplified way I've told people that using a compressor can increase the chance for feedback is only when applying makeup gain. Otherwise there is no change in feedback potential using a compressor since there is no change in channel or bus gain. It's pretty simple really. Gain is gain regardless of where it's applied in relation to mic level or speaker level changes. If you have a stable system and decide to turn on a vocal channel or bus compressor but don't add makeup gain, the stability will not change. Add some makeup gain, and things will change.

Seems like that's what happened in my case Greg. Too much make-up gain and your right, gain is gain no matter how you look at it  :)
Gio Stefani
Stefani Entertainment
"We Bring Good Music to Life"

Harpman

  • Knight
  • ****
  • Location: Temecula, CA
  • Posts: 339
  • 的f music be the food of love, play on"
    • Stefani Entertainment
Re: Feedback quandary
« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2013, 05:23:33 PM »
I was with Harpman when he was experiencing his feedback problem recently and thank him for posting the question here.  I had discovered that problem for myself with my own DL 1608 and band and suspected his problem was compression on the vocal channel.  As a general rule of thumb then, is it advised that compression only be used very sparingly, if at all, on vocal channels?  I've got ours completely disabled for the time being and we seem to be doing just fine without it.

Jeff, thanks for chiming in here. When your at a live, your first goal is to isolate where the feedback is occurring (I start muting channels). My next step is cutting frequencies (typically mids around the 5K range), but in my case it wasn't doing anything. This is when Jeff suggested killing the compression on my GF's vocal channel based on what he had experienced. When I went back through my saved shows the next day, that's when I realized I had the wrong show loaded.  I name my shows based on band and venue. For example "BE@AR" is Barefoot Express @ Anthony's Ristorante. The issue with using two iPads at gigs it that you still end up with duplicate shows and I wasn't paying attention to the one I loaded.  I had 2 BE@AR and the older one had compression on on the vocals and the other didn't. I must have had this issue before and disabled compression on the vocal channels, but who remembers over 6 months ago  :).

Thanks all for you feedback here (no pun intended LOL). I tend to gravitate to EQ as being the feedback issue because 90% of the time, it is.  When faced with feedback issues, my goal is to isolate and remediate as quick as possible and analyze later. 
Gio Stefani
Stefani Entertainment
"We Bring Good Music to Life"

Harpman

  • Knight
  • ****
  • Location: Temecula, CA
  • Posts: 339
  • 的f music be the food of love, play on"
    • Stefani Entertainment
Re: Feedback quandary
« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2013, 05:27:51 PM »
"There you go again" by RR, that's Ronald Reagan not RK. Making uninformed and unsubstantiated statements like "I think you misunderstood what I said - compression DOES increase the likelihood of feedback." is how wife's tales get started and makes us FOH guys look bad. Compression does NOT increase the likelihood of feedback in fact it does the opposite as was intended. Let me give you a simple example in Audio 101. Let say that the feedback threshold for you gig is -7dB FS and your music rms is at -20 db that would leave you 13 dB of crest factor (the difference between the rms and the loudest peak in your music) before you trigger feedback. In my experience and most other Audio Engineers  a crest factor  of up to 12dB would be typical. There are exceptions mostly in bad music.  So with this setup  you have 1 dB headroom before triggering feedback. Now lets enable compression and use Harpman's settings of -20 dB threshold and 1:4 ratio. That would enable 13 x 4 = 52 dB more input before you reach feedback threshold. Other things would fall apart long before this would happen. Yes I know that it was only one channel that it would be diluted by the mix but for simplicities sake I'll consider it the main source. What Harpman forgot to mention in this post but did in another is that he had a gain setting of 7  dB in the compressor settings !!! Well an additional 7 dB would send this system screaming without the compressor, 6 dB is a 100% increase in loudness above the feedback threshold. The lesson here is that observation without understanding the basics or checking your settings can lead to the wrong conclusions. RR there is an old proverb "that if you want to be rich you don't hang out with the poor" so let me introduce you to Bob Katz. There is an excellent text by Bob Katz on this and many other aspects of audio in his book "Mastering Audio...". Heavy reading for most but if you pick up 0.001% you'll be light years ahead. Harpman your initial gut feeling was correct and yes the "Laws of Sound" are intact. Your compressor settings are another matter.

WK154, thanks for the support here.  What your saying and Greg is spot on with MG.  I can totally see that.  I'm pretty sure I have that book by Bob Katz. Very good reading!
Gio Stefani
Stefani Entertainment
"We Bring Good Music to Life"

Greg C.

  • Forty-Two
  • Knight
  • ****
  • Location: N. CA.
  • Posts: 302
    • Cameron Pro Audio
Re: Feedback quandary
« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2013, 05:45:49 PM »
+1 ... and the same holds true for EQ's if you decide to boost a range of frequencies all hell can break loose if you don't compensate for the overall level increase, especially if you're close to your feedback limit.

A lot of EQs have a makeup gain control, but I can't recall any situation where I've used it. And I almost never use an EQ boost on house or monitor graphics, cuts only. The one exception is a local historic theater I do sound design in for plays occasionally. The installed speaker system is a early 70's era Altec home brew box with HF horns that don't have anything above 4k. I've got a linear boost on the house graph starting at 3k gradually increasing on each band ending at +10dB at 20kHz in an attempt to get some sibilance and "air" out of the headset mics. Even that wasn't enough. I had to boost the highs on all the individual mic too. If I did that with any decent speaker system, the feedback with omni headset mics would take off in a jiffy. But not with this system.
Procrastinators of the World, Contemplate Uniting!

WK154

  • Door #3
  • Master
  • *****
  • Location: Valencia CA
  • Posts: 2643
Re: Feedback quandary
« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2013, 07:10:26 PM »
My own approach even on the old graphic EQ's is to set them in cut only selection if they had it. Never used boost myself other than to experiment. I find that fixing (or trying) mic position or technique is time better spend. The right mic for the job does wonders and changing acoustics in a venue you have no control over is of course impossible. Yes Divas are a PIA at times but some actually come around and learn something new. I use compressors for limiters only for such Murphy events as mics being knocked over (NT3 two month ago) or them being dropped.
When in doubt KISS

Greg C.

  • Forty-Two
  • Knight
  • ****
  • Location: N. CA.
  • Posts: 302
    • Cameron Pro Audio
Re: Feedback quandary
« Reply #20 on: July 20, 2013, 07:21:46 PM »
My usual compression setup when resources are available is to use a combination of channel and bus compression. For vocals, I'll set a very low compression ratio on the channels using something between 1.25:1 - 2:1 & medium attack/release with the threshold set to kick in so there's slight compression during "normal" singing. Then the bus compressor for the vocal groups is set more as limiter with 6:1 ratio with high threshold and fast attack/release. I do a similar thing with guitars and horns as well but the channel compression is usually more around 3:1 and the bus compression too. Keeps things under control without killing dynamics. For kick/snare, I'll run those to a group bus and compress mildly, no more than a few dB of reduction unless the drumming bangs the crap out of the kit occasionally. Toms get their own group compression too in similar fashion to the kick snare group.
Procrastinators of the World, Contemplate Uniting!

Harpman

  • Knight
  • ****
  • Location: Temecula, CA
  • Posts: 339
  • 的f music be the food of love, play on"
    • Stefani Entertainment
Re: Feedback quandary
« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2013, 07:39:34 PM »
My usual compression setup when resources are available is to use a combination of channel and bus compression. For vocals, I'll set a very low compression ratio on the channels using something between 1.25:1 - 2:1 & medium attack/release with the threshold set to kick in so there's slight compression during "normal" singing. Then the bus compressor for the vocal groups is set more as limiter with 6:1 ratio with high threshold and fast attack/release. I do a similar thing with guitars and horns as well but the channel compression is usually more around 3:1 and the bus compression too. Keeps things under control without killing dynamics. For kick/snare, I'll run those to a group bus and compress mildly, no more than a few dB of reduction unless the drumming bangs the crap out of the kit occasionally. Toms get their own group compression too in similar fashion to the kick snare group.

Unfortunately, no bus compression on the DL1608. Was that one of the feature requests?  Would be nice to have overall compression on the main mix.
Gio Stefani
Stefani Entertainment
"We Bring Good Music to Life"

Ampli

  • Knight
  • ****
  • Location:
  • Posts: 129
Re: Feedback quandary
« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2013, 07:48:48 PM »
There are compressors on the main and all the auxes, swipe the geq down and u find it

Harpman

  • Knight
  • ****
  • Location: Temecula, CA
  • Posts: 339
  • 的f music be the food of love, play on"
    • Stefani Entertainment
Re: Feedback quandary
« Reply #23 on: July 20, 2013, 07:53:10 PM »
There are compressors on the main and all the auxes, swipe the geq down and u find it

Wow, I've had this unit since November and never knew.  Thanks!!
Gio Stefani
Stefani Entertainment
"We Bring Good Music to Life"

Ampli

  • Knight
  • ****
  • Location:
  • Posts: 129
Re: Feedback quandary
« Reply #24 on: July 20, 2013, 08:11:52 PM »
There are compressors on the main and all the auxes, swipe the geq down and u find it

Wow, I've had this unit since November and never knew.  Thanks!!

Yep sometimes reading a manuel helps lol

Harpman

  • Knight
  • ****
  • Location: Temecula, CA
  • Posts: 339
  • 的f music be the food of love, play on"
    • Stefani Entertainment
Re: Feedback quandary
« Reply #25 on: July 20, 2013, 08:26:27 PM »
Yeah, RTFM  :lol:  So, Greg chimed in with his recommendation for bus compression.  Anyone else care to share in regards to bus compression.  Noticed the defaults are Hard Knee, 0dB Threshold, 2:1 Ratio, Fast Attack, Release @ 250ms and 0dB Makeup Gain.
Gio Stefani
Stefani Entertainment
"We Bring Good Music to Life"

RoadRanger

  • SysGod
  • Counselor
  • Master
  • *****
  • Location: NE CT USA
  • Posts: 1781
  • "Wherever you go, There you are"
    • Cacophony Forums
Re: Feedback quandary
« Reply #26 on: July 20, 2013, 10:59:48 PM »
Basically anytime there is gain reduction you need more gain to get it as loud as it was without the gain reduction. That's fine until the gain reduction goes away when the signal is reduced or stops, then it's feedback city :( .

dpdan

  • Dapper Dan
  • Master
  • *****
  • Location: St. Louis Missouri
  • Posts: 679
    • kurysound.com
Re: Feedback quandary
« Reply #27 on: July 21, 2013, 12:55:45 AM »
Exactly RR :)
I had a gig tonight that got cancelled, so I decided to spend some positive time on this forum that I enjoy from time to time.
Here's what goes on when more than one vocal or instrument is routed (assigned) to a group with a compressor on that group....

We have Mary singing soprano, Jill singing alto, Tom singing tenor and Jack singing bass. 
 
Even if all four vocals have their own compressor, (ideal) since all four vocals are routed to a group with additional compression we probably never end up with good sound and here's why...
If all the singers were singing sensibly and with reasonable dynamics that's great, but what happens when the soprano Mary hits a note that takes everyone's head off....

Instead of just Mary's vocal being lowered by "Her" compressor, she has hit the threshold of the group's compressor, and all four voices are lowered. Compressors are dumb, they have no clue about high notes or low notes, they are completely unbiased to frequency and therefore can only reduce volume by shear increase of level (voltage). Using some compression on the master fader of the 1608 can help to minimize potential dangerous levels to your speakers. It is always a tradeoff.

When Mary sang that obnoxiously loud note, we did not want her bad singing to effect the volume of the other three voices in the group, but that's what you get when you think it's good to put a compressor on all the vocals, or all the drums, or whatever. It's not usually a good idea. When things like this happen, the unexperienced sound operator has no clue what is really going on.

Compressors are typically used to ensure that a reasonable dynamic range is heard by the listener without having to worry about wigs flying off now and then or straining to hear soft passages.
A compressor (when set properly) can catch a nasty blast of volume far quicker than any sound person could ever anticipate.

A properly set compressor on a vocal minimizes, to a degree, the dynamic range of the vocalist. Mary is all over the place, one minute she's fine then she's whispering, then screaming, and all the while never uses any amount of microphone control.

When we compress Mary's vocal channel, the first thing that most engineers grab is the threshold knob (Mackie's slider), then the ratio, then attack and release times if available, and finally the makeup gain sometimes labeled output. Think of threshold as "threshold of pain". Usually when we lower the threshold knob (counter-clockwise) (Mackie's slider to the left) we are lowering the threshold of pain meaning.... we are not going to tolerate even the slightest abuse of loud screaming from Mary, if we use a very low threshold, virtually everything she sings will be above the threshold, so if we have a reasonable setting for the ratio knob, somewhere between 3:1, and 6:1, the compressor will minimize her volume when she goes nuts on us. Of course if we have a significant amount of compression on Mary, guess what???? now we can't hear her, sooooooo, we use the makeup gain (output) on the compressor to put her volume back up to where we can hear her. So when Mary is singing, we look at the compressor levels. The 1608's compressor has a red level between the input level and output level. The red level works backwards, showing decibels of attenuation. We can clearly see the input level as it came into the compressor, we also see the amount of gain reduction (red) and then to the right of that we see the resulting output level. When Mary is singing a loud passage the compressor will do it's job and take the volume down, but when she sings softer, the compressor releases (lets go) and allows the mic level to be uncompressed, kinda like riding her fader if you knew when she was going to blast off. Since we increased the output (makeup gain) when we were setting the knobs during soundcheck, this is when feedback could rear it's ugly head. YES, too much compression (with makeup gain added) (DOH!)  ::) will more than likely cause feedback. In these situations, when she is not singing, and her mic is on her mic stand pointing at the drums, we will get a very ugly sound from her mic picking up the drums that she is standing in front of or was.

Finally, attack and release.
The attack knob is used to adjust exactly what it says "attack" how quick do we want the compressor to begin compressing when Mary hits the threshold with a nasty loud note. Let's say she sings a line that goes like this....Happy birthday to you,... happy birthday to you,... happy BIRTHday dear Johnny,

if we had the attack set to a half second, (500 ms).... BIRTH would blast out uncontrollably, if she held the word BIRRRRRRTH for at least 500 ms. then the compressor would lower her volume.
If we had the compressor's attack time set as fast as it could be, the compressor would have taken care of the loud BIRTH regardless of soft lyrics before the nasty loud note.

Now let's talk about release time.
The release knob adjusts how quickly or slowly the compressor will let go once Mary has blasted a note. If we have the release time set too long like one second, we won't hear the rest of her words for that legato line. If we have the release time set too short, the compressor will let go super fast between words and will cause a nasty sound that engineers refer to as "pumping".

Listen to one of your favorite pop recordings with a vocal, all too often, the compressor on the vocal has a release time that has been set way too fast by the "seasoned mix engineer" and every time the singer takes a breath, the breath is actually louder than the singing. There was so much compression on the vocal that when she stopped singing, the compressor let go, then the singer took a breath, but the breath was not loud enough to meet the threshold, so it wasn't lowered in volume like the singing was,.... I hear this all the time.   :facepalm:

For most vocals that are not out of control, I recommend not using any compression, I did't say don't use compression on vocals, it completely depends on the vocalist. Mixing music in a studio is completely different, especially when the vocal track has no other instruments leaking into her mic, and feedback is not an issue since most are wearing headphones. In a studio environment, you can use a compressor to make her sound any way you want... punchy, smooth etc. For vocalists that are not so good with mic control or vocals who weave in and out of the mic some compression will help, this way we don't loose too much as they back away from the mic, and smooth the sound out when they suddenly get too close or loud. 

4:1 is a pretty common "Ratio" setting. Watch the display at the top of the window showing exact numbers as you move the sliders for the various settings. You can also click in the display window and enter exact amounts via the iPad's keyboard. The threshold setting is going to completely rely on your input gain setting,.... (gain knobs on the 1608).
I suggest a very fast attack time and a release time of at least 200 milliseconds, this will virtually eliminate any chance of pumping, and we won't have to worry about missing sibilance and diction.

Now on a completely different note  8)  compression on bass is commonly used to help increase the sustain especially upright acoustic basses. Since the bass note immediately starts to decay after plucking the string, the compressor would gradually release the compression which would make the bass notes appear to sustain longer, and notes on different strings would sound more consistent. This is where a compressor is used to change the way a particular sound sounds. Good engineers also use compression on snare and kick, as well as toms sometimes to increase punch. This can be accomplished by using a slow attack time then adding the sound of the compressed drum to the uncompressed track or channel. This is sometimes referred to as parallel compression, an old studio trick but one that its not known by many. This can be achieved with the 1608 if you run the kick into an XLR Y cord and feed the kick mic into two different channels, one channel would be named kickcomp and the compression settings would be set very radical, but the volume of this kickcomp channel would be added judiciously when needed for extra punch. Same thing goes for snare, brass, anything that you want to be more aggressive sounding.

Compression, (when set properly) is our best friend
when set poorly, it is our worst enemy.
Final conclusion to this advice which you can take or leave,..... if you don't completely understand all the settings of a compressor, you're better off not using one.


Dan
 
« Last Edit: July 21, 2013, 01:31:59 AM by dpdan »

WK154

  • Door #3
  • Master
  • *****
  • Location: Valencia CA
  • Posts: 2643
Re: Feedback quandary
« Reply #28 on: July 21, 2013, 01:37:48 AM »
RR: That's fine until the gain reduction goes away when the signal is reduced or stops, then it's feedback city :( .
Am I reading this wrong? Gain reduction goes away by what means, the signal (vocal or instrument)? I interpret this as the loss of sound will cause feedback! The gain reduction in the compressor is a setting you need to change manually and certainly not during performance. Please explain.
When in doubt KISS

RoadRanger

  • SysGod
  • Counselor
  • Master
  • *****
  • Location: NE CT USA
  • Posts: 1781
  • "Wherever you go, There you are"
    • Cacophony Forums
Re: Feedback quandary
« Reply #29 on: July 21, 2013, 01:55:13 AM »
Like wow, I don't know how to respond to that. Your compressors don't have a gain reduction meter so's you can see how that varies dynamically with the "key" (usually the input) signal's strength?