Subgroup Scenerio

[walterw]

i've been using the "group compression" workaround for a long time now for small analog boards in bars/clubs where the same board is driving monitors, so as to keep said compression out of said monitors (which channel inserting would cause).

in practice, when the singers all have their act together it works perfectly fine; the lead vox (whoever it is for that song) is kicking over the comp, while the backing vox not so much; yes, if it happens at the same time the backing vox gets "ducked" a bit by the lead vox, but that's OK, the backing vocals are supposed to be "out of the way".

thankfully this conflict hasn't been an issue with the DL since 2.0 came out; set your auxes "pre-DSP" and you can squish each vocal to your heart's content without affecting the monitors. (before 2.0 i was split-channeling it with XLR Y-cables; 2 channels per vocal, one comp'ed for out front, the other un-comp'ed just for monitors.)

[Harpman]

I disagree Greg,
if you have a good vocal blend and one person triggers the threshold, everything in that group gets lowered, not just the offending vocal.
It can not work any other way, regardless of whether or not the vocal mix is out of whack.
Now, if the compression isn't noticeable, it's because the compression settings were so timid that compressing the group was pointless. It is why I never do that.
Each vocalist gets his/her own compression based on their tendencies. If I do not know the vocalists and their tendancies, then each one still gets their own compression, even more important.

No sweat, keep doing this if it works for you.

If you are using mild channel compression on each vocal as I stated previously and maintaining a relatively cohesive vocal mix, what happens when all the singers start singing and plow into the group compressor is that the overall level of the vocal mix stays under control. You do not get one vocalist jumping out over the top suddenly because they already have channel compression keeping their base level in check. It's a proven method. It's not a new concept. I like it because it prevents needing more drastic compression on the individual channels and sounds more natural at lower to moderate vocal levels. Heavy compression doesn't engage unless things start heating up. By messing with individual channel ratios and thresholds relative to the group compressor, you have a lot more control than with single channel only compression.

Greg, when you say "mild channel compression", do you have some specifics (i.e. Light preset to start with). Currently, I keep vocals under control, so I don't use any compression on the vocal channels. So if I use mild compression on all the vocal channels, assign the lead vocalist to one SG with "mild compression" and the remaining background vocalists to another SG with "moderate compression", I can keep the background vocalists from overtaking the lead vocalist.  Am I on the right track here?


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[Harpman]

i've been using the "group compression" workaround for a long time now for small analog boards in bars/clubs where the same board is driving monitors, so as to keep said compression out of said monitors (which channel inserting would cause).

in practice, when the singers all have their act together it works perfectly fine; the lead vox (whoever it is for that song) is kicking over the comp, while the backing vox not so much; yes, if it happens at the same time the backing vox gets "ducked" a bit by the lead vox, but that's OK, the backing vocals are supposed to be "out of the way".

thankfully this conflict hasn't been an issue with the DL since 2.0 came out; set your auxes "pre-DSP" and you can squish each vocal to your heart's content without affecting the monitors. (before 2.0 i was split-channeling it with XLR Y-cables; 2 channels per vocal, one comp'ed for out front, the other un-comp'ed just for monitors.)

Walter, thanks for the response.  In your second paragraph< I'm assuming your using one SG for all vocals?   We have a lot of harmonies going on with our vocals.  I like the idea of Greg's keeping "mild compression" (I don't use any now and don't have any issues), and using a SG overall. I've always run the vocals a bit hot, because stage noise floor is always an issue. Drummer plays harder and everything comes up and vocals get buried in the mix. Maybe I should start carrying a taser


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[Greg C.]

Greg, when you say "mild channel compression", do you have some specifics (i.e. Light preset to start with). Currently, I keep vocals under control, so I don't use any compression on the vocal channels. So if I use mild compression on all the vocal channels, assign the lead vocalist to one SG with "mild compression" and the remaining background vocalists to another SG with "moderate compression", I can keep the background vocalists from overtaking the lead vocalist.  Am I on the right track here?

For vocal channels, I run a 1.5 to a 2:1 compression ratio with fast attack and release that's set to kick in a "moderate levels". By that I mean not at talking between songs level but rather solid singing levels. If I get someone that's really dynamic and truly "eats the mic," I might bump that ratio up a bit higher to 2.5:1 and never higher than 3:1. I let the group compressor take care things beyond that.

[Harpman]

Greg, when you say "mild channel compression", do you have some specifics (i.e. Light preset to start with). Currently, I keep vocals under control, so I don't use any compression on the vocal channels. So if I use mild compression on all the vocal channels, assign the lead vocalist to one SG with "mild compression" and the remaining background vocalists to another SG with "moderate compression", I can keep the background vocalists from overtaking the lead vocalist.  Am I on the right track here?

For vocal channels, I run a 1.5 to a 2:1 compression ratio with fast attack and release that's set to kick in a "moderate levels". By that I mean not at talking between songs level but rather solid singing levels. If I get someone that's really dynamic and truly "eats the mic," I might bump that ratio up a bit higher to 2.5:1 and never higher than 3:1. I let the group compressor take care things beyond that.

Thanks Greg, appreciate your feedback

[Wynnd]

9 to 1 works great for preachers!!!!!  Those guys will go from a whisper to shouting in just a few words.  (Politicians can be nearly as bad.)  When I'm doing sound, I want the whispers to be heard in the audience but I don't want they breaking my system when they start shouting.  (And us old folks don't like too loud cause it distorts and we can't understand what is said.)

[Greg C.]

9 to 1 works great for preachers!!!!!  Those guys will go from a whisper to shouting in just a few words.  (Politicians can be nearly as bad.)  When I'm doing sound, I want the whispers to be heard in the audience but I don't want they breaking my system when they start shouting.  (And us old folks don't like too loud cause it distorts and we can't understand what is said.)

2 stage vocal compression is basically a way to mitigate that super hard crush but accomplish a similar amount of vocal level protection.

[Soundbyte]

I did a traveling evangelist show about 20 years ago, so I know the pain. This dude was doing the whole "healing hands" trip and everything. There was around 5,000 believers in attendance and this guy went 0 to 60 in a heartbeat for 2 hours strait. It was exhausting even with compression and limiters.

[Wynnd]

You've made my point.  Preachers need some serious compression to prevent them from shattering speakers and ear drums while allowing those quiet sections to be loud enough to be heard. 

[dpdan]

really good,, effective preachers never yell at their flock.

[sam.spoons]

Absolutely..... have you ever met one? 

[Wynnd]

Don't know if Pentecostal preachers are the worst, but they yell and scream at everyone.  (At least the one I know.)

[dpdan]

Sam, I have met and know many preachers who are the real deal.

[Soundbyte]

Couldn't say if this guy was the real deal or not but I'll bet he left town $100,000 richer. Not bad for a day's work & a lot of the people there probably would have drank the koolaid if he'd asked them to. It was bizarre to say the least!

[dpdan]

not good