Opinion poll: Which brand inspires more confidence - Mackie or Behringer?

[robbocurry]

I'm pondering the upcoming releases from Behringer but can't stop previous bad experiences with the brand clouding my judgment.
The DL1608 is the first piece of Mackie gear I've owned or even used. It's working fine and looks well built. So far so good.
I have owned some brands that were partners (I believe) with Mackie and shared parts & development - RCF & DB Technologies.
DB Technologies is another brand I won't be rushing out to buy again. Their service department in the UK leaves a lot to be desired in my experience.

Prior to my DL purchase, I was aware of the Mackie brand and knew plenty of people who bought and used it. Reliability was never a topic of discussion.

On the other hand, I've owned quite a few Behringer units over the years due to a very local supplier and low pricing.
When the Behringer kit worked it was great, when it failed it was junk.
Behringer service (in my experience, in the UK) was very poor. Resale value of working units was poor too.

Don't get me wrong, not all of it went wrong but a significant enough amount for me to insist on testing every new purchase before I left the store.
Subsequently the local supplier stopped stocking Behringer because of the amount of returns and the poor service, he didn't want all the hassle for what was a small profit margin.

Now that Behringer own Midas they may well be a different proposition. 
The purchase of an iX16, X32 or X32 rack would be a significant chunk of cash here in the UK, I don't know if I could take the risk.
Maybe if they offered a three or five year swap out warranty I might be tempted, perhaps they do already, I don't know?
Any piece of equipment as important as a mixer can never afford to go wrong IMHO. The consequences are obvious.

So the question is: Which product would you be more confident in, Mackie or Behringer?

[LeeSteel]

I have had a huge amount of success with Behringer products, however, I did purchase a XENYX XL2400 when they first came out and it didn't last a year before it started falling apart. It totally sucked (to use restraint and put it mildly).

I have and have owned several Behringer mixers and rack effects over the years and they have been workhorses. I have a small 4 channel Behringer mixer in an all metal case that was one of the first to come out (before the plastic sides). That mixer has been dropped, stepped on, thrown in a trunk, stored in a damp storage unit, lived under the car seat, had beer spilled on it and has generally been through hell. Still working for over 10 years.

I currently use 2 - ADA8000 in my home studio. I am also using Behringer powered speakers, 1 - B205D, 2  - B812NEO, 2 - B1800D, and 2 - F1320D with my DL and these powered speakers work week after week with no signs of letting up. HOWEVER, like Mackie, Behringer advertised products well over a year ago like the FCA1616 and the upgrade to the ADA8000, the ADA8200. Behringer keeps promising "next quarter" for the relaease. FCA1616 was introduced at NAMM 2012.

Generally I give Behringer high marks for their "bang for the buck" and durability. Every company delivers a clam once in a while. Unfortunately, I have not owned enough Mackie product to draw a useful comparison. I am very happy with my DL so far. I am just very anxious at this point for it's full potential to be realized. This unit has everything it needs to be way ahead of the pack but it seems as if Mackie is holding it back for some reason.

The iPad offers so much flexibility that Mackie is not taking advantage of like 3rd party plugins (in-store purchase). Hopefully the next release of Master Fader will shed a new ray of hope. This new My Fader is nothing more than a demo or proof of design for me. Just another example of something that could have been so much more. Especially with all the time it has taken them of get it into our hands.

Sorry for venting, it's just that the anticipation and disappointments are starting to wear on me.

[RoadRanger]

I have owned some brands that were partners (I believe) with Mackie and shared parts & development - RCF & DB Technologies.

The early Mackie speakers were made (and mostly designed) by RCF in Italy and where top notch. Mackie then had Chinese copies made and sold those, not-so-good . That happened after Greg Mackie sold the company in 2003 :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Clark_Mackie

Uli Behringer still owns Behringer. Before Behringer's acquisition of Midas I'd have rated both companies about equal. Behringer does seem to be making a push to up their game as of late:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behringer

[robbocurry]

Hey Lee,
Thanks for the reply, all venting welcome!
I've only really owned Behringer outboard gear and a few mixers, never tried their speakers or amps.
Maybe if I purchased multiple quantities of other manufacturers I'd have the same reservations about reliability with them too.
I'm sure I must have bought at least 20 of their products over the years. If you buy enough, maybe a lemon is inevitable?
I liked Behringer enough to buy "20" units even though I suspected their reliability, because they were cheap individually.
The thought of spending £1K or £2K on one single Behringer unit would have given me a cold sweat previously.
Maybe they have changed?

You're spot on regarding the DL and it's (currently) stifled use of the iPad interface.
It's good, but I can only hope for more features to come.

[robbocurry]

I have owned some brands that were partners (I believe) with Mackie and shared parts & development - RCF & DB Technologies.

The early Mackie speakers were made (and mostly designed) by RCF in Italy and where top notch. Mackie then had Chinese copies made and sold those, not-so-good . That happened after Greg Mackie sold the company in 2003 :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Clark_Mackie

Uli Behringer still owns Behringer. Before Behringer's acquisition of Midas I'd have rated both companies about equal. Behringer does seem to be making a push to up their game as of late:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behringer

Ta for the info RR

[Jerrylee]

I am very happy with my DL so far. I am just very anxious at this point for it's full potential to be realized. This unit has everything it needs to be way ahead of the pack but it seems as if Mackie is holding it back for some reason.

The iPad offers so much flexibility that Mackie is not taking advantage of like 3rd party plugins (in-store purchase). Hopefully the next release of Master Fader will shed a new ray of hope. This new My Fader is nothing more than a demo or proof of design for me. Just another example of something that could have been so much more. Especially with all the time it has taken them of get it into our hands.

Lee, seriously what are you thinking? How in the world does this unit have "everything it needs to be way ahead of the pack". Have you not realized that the issue is not iPad based, it is hardware based. There is such a lack of hardware in the dl that mackie will never be able to make up for. They are/were only ahead of the pack for a short while. In my opinion they are right now. This is only because there is nothing out that is comparable. But that is going to end rather quickly. Do you really need me to say what is missing? And what will never be? And what all the competition will be releasing that the dl will never be able to do?

In regards to plug ins this will probably never happen. The processing power of the dl is in the hardware. It has a limited amount of space. The plug in would have to be loaded to the dl through the iPad, but not processed in the iPad itself. Yes there is a way to use the iPad to process some things. But with a 2 in 2 out interface this is extremely limited. Remember that only the master or L/R channels are being passed through. This will never change because it is hardware based. If the plug in is in the iPad then all channels will be processed by the plug in. Or left right channels. And then they are all returned to 2 channels.

The iPad is only a control surface. Therefore things like linking channels, subgroups, mute groups, eq resets, etc should all be possible. All this is control based. The master fader app can be redesigned to do all this. But when it comes to plug ins the hardware (non control based) needs to take over, and it cannot.

The unit is missing so many things that it will never have. Here are just a few: no USB connection, no programmable preamps, limited processing power, no midi I/O, limited 2x2 iPad only interface, no channel expandability, 2 effects processors, etc.

So I ask again, how does this unit have everything in needs to be way ahead of the pack?

[LeeSteel]

Jerry, in true "Jerry" fashion, points out everything that this board was never intended to do. Time will tell if a competitor delivers a board that sounds as good as the DL does, in the same small package, at the same price point, and includes all these "nice to haves" that you list.

1. I will agree that channel linking is a big request from.
2. I also need to have AUX sends be pre dynamics.
3. I would have liked my DL to serve dual purpose and act as a recording interface but not a game changer in my case.
4. I don't need midi in my mixer.
5. The current Delay and Reverb are nothing more than plugins. We may be limited to 2 at a time, but we certainly should not be limited to which ones we use or where they came from.
6. One of the biggest things for me that is missing from this mixer is channel inserts, but I bought the DL knowing that ahead of time.

Jerry, you have bashed the DL from the beginning, even before it was released. I can't believe you have followed us here to continue your rant. What seems to be the problem? Is there no Behringer forum for you to blather on?

[Jerrylee]

Lee currently I love the dl. I am not bashing it. I am pointing out the obvious. And the obvious flaws in your post. How is that bashing? Please explain this too. Or maybe you can't. Just like you can't defend your prior statements. I sold my presonus for the dl and the dl blows it away (in my opinion) for my needs. Does that mean I bashed presonus?

I will add again that I have been and currently am one of the biggest defenders of the dl1608. Once I called it a pos board. I corrected myself saying that I was referring to the company not the board.

[Jerrylee]

Jerry, in true "Jerry" fashion, points out everything that this board was never intended to do. Time will tell if a competitor delivers a board that sounds as good as the DL does, in the same small package, at the same price point, and includes all these "nice to haves" that you list.

1. I will agree that channel linking is a big request from.
2. I also need to have AUX sends be pre dynamics. 
3. I would have liked my DL to serve dual purpose and act as a recording interface but not a game changer in my case.
4. I don't need midi in my mixer.
5. The current Delay and Reverb are nothing more than plugins. We may be limited to 2 at a time, but we certainly should not be limited to which ones we use or where they came from.
6. One of the biggest things for me that is missing from this mixer is channel inserts, but I bought the DL knowing that ahead of time.

Jerry, you have bashed the DL from the beginning, even before it was released. I can't believe you have followed us here to continue your rant. What seems to be the problem? Is there no Behringer forum for you to blather on?

1. I will agree that channel linking is a big request from. (CAN BE DONE)
2. I also need to have AUX sends be pre dynamics.  (MAY OR MAY NOT BE POSSIBLE)
3. I would have liked my DL to serve dual purpose and act as a recording interface but not a game changer in my case. (NOT AHEAD OF THE PACK)
4. I don't need midi in my mixer. (YOU MAY NOT NEED IT, BUT AGAIN NOT AHEAD OF THE PACK)
5. The current Delay and Reverb are nothing more than plugins. We may be limited to 2 at a time, but we certainly should not be limited to which ones we use or where they came from. (NOT AHEAD OF THE PACK)
6. One of the biggest things for me that is missing from this mixer is channel inserts, but I bought the DL knowing that ahead of time. (NOT AHEAD OF THE PACK)

Geez you make this easy. Want to try again?

You act like just because you don't need or want it that no one else does. This clearly does not make the mackie have everything it need to be ahead of the pack. Your own list shows that.

[sam.spoons]

I have owned or worked with a number of pieces of Mackie and Berhinger gear (Mackie :- 3 x 1202, 1604, and, of course DL1608... Berry :- Eurodesk 8000, loads of gates, compressors and power amps) only failure was one Berry Europower 2400. We've had a worse failure rate with Crown XTi's, between me and the Hire company we own 4, 100% failure rate (and, despite it being a known issue 3 out of the four were expensive chargeable repairs). Also the Crown power amps in our PRX512M's have been troublesome. Just goes to show that reputation can be misleading, I'd have considered Crown way more reliable than Mackie/Berry 5 years ago.

Regarding the DL1608/ahead of the pack.. It is ahead of the pack right now, it must be 'cos their ain't anything else like it available. It won't be ahead of the pack any more when the iX16 comes out, than honour will then pass to the iX16, and from there to whatever follows. It's the way technology works. The DL is not perfect but, if the DL is what you want then it's the only game in town.......

[robbocurry]

I have owned or worked with a number of pieces of Mackie and Berhinger gear (Mackie :- 3 x 1202, 1604, and, of course DL1608... Berry :- Eurodesk 8000, loads of gates, compressors and power amps) only failure was one Berry Europower 2400. We've had a worse failure rate with Crown XTi's, between me and the Hire company we own 4, 100% failure rate (and, despite it being a known issue 3 out of the four were expensive chargeable repairs). Also the Crown power amps in our PRX512M's have been troublesome. Just goes to show that reputation can be misleading, I'd have considered Crown way more reliable than Mackie/Berry 5 years ago.

Regarding the DL1608/ahead of the pack.. It is ahead of the pack right now, it must be 'cos their ain't anything else like it available. It won't be ahead of the pack any more when the iX16 comes out, than honour will then pass to the iX16, and from there to whatever follows. It's the way technology works. The DL is not perfect but, if the DL is what you want then it's the only game in town.......

Heard that about the XTi's, the early iTechs gave bother too. I steered clear of them.
I've never owned a VZ but had ten K2's over the years. I never had a single K2 fail me. (apart from blow an occasional fuse when the big torodial gets loose)
Anything can breakdown I suppose. It's how often and how quickly a repair can be made that forms perceptions.
I'll always have a wee place for a spare K2, it's one of my "saved searches" on eBay.

PS. Sam -  Your Europower amps, is there good poke out of them? I always see them on Gumtree and eBay, usually pretty cheap, handy cheap spare....?

[sam.spoons]

We've moved the Europowers on as they don't appear on many tech riders but they did the business for us for two or three years while we gradually replaced them with more rider friendly kit (iTech 8000's in fact, which have been trouble free so far). I suspect the XTi issues (and the older iTech's) probably related to a bad batch of components from the suppliers as they've all been reliable since being repaired. The Europower that failed almost totally fried a PCB, the tech suspects a total short under full load combined with a slightly dodgy semiconductor somewhere, Berhinger must use lower grade components than more expensive gear to keep prices low.

I'd have no particular worries about buying a Europower or two if I needed some more power amps.

[LeeSteel]

Jerry, in true "Jerry" fashion, points out everything that this board was never intended to do. Time will tell if a competitor delivers a board that sounds as good as the DL does, in the same small package, at the same price point, and includes all these "nice to haves" that you list.

1. I will agree that channel linking is a big request from.
2. I also need to have AUX sends be pre dynamics. 
3. I would have liked my DL to serve dual purpose and act as a recording interface but not a game changer in my case.
4. I don't need midi in my mixer.
5. The current Delay and Reverb are nothing more than plugins. We may be limited to 2 at a time, but we certainly should not be limited to which ones we use or where they came from.
6. One of the biggest things for me that is missing from this mixer is channel inserts, but I bought the DL knowing that ahead of time.

Jerry, you have bashed the DL from the beginning, even before it was released. I can't believe you have followed us here to continue your rant. What seems to be the problem? Is there no Behringer forum for you to blather on?

1. I will agree that channel linking is a big request from. (CAN BE DONE)
2. I also need to have AUX sends be pre dynamics.  (MAY OR MAY NOT BE POSSIBLE)
3. I would have liked my DL to serve dual purpose and act as a recording interface but not a game changer in my case. (NOT AHEAD OF THE PACK)
4. I don't need midi in my mixer. (YOU MAY NOT NEED IT, BUT AGAIN NOT AHEAD OF THE PACK)
5. The current Delay and Reverb are nothing more than plugins. We may be limited to 2 at a time, but we certainly should not be limited to which ones we use or where they came from. (NOT AHEAD OF THE PACK)
6. One of the biggest things for me that is missing from this mixer is channel inserts, but I bought the DL knowing that ahead of time. (NOT AHEAD OF THE PACK)

Geez you make this easy. Want to try again?

You act like just because you don't need or want it that no one else does. This clearly does not make the mackie have everything it need to be ahead of the pack. Your own list shows that.

My point is that there is NOTHING out there for $900 that has all these things you whine about.

[robbocurry]

We've moved the Europowers on as they don't appear on many tech riders but they did the business for us for two or three years while we gradually replaced them with more rider friendly kit (iTech 8000's in fact, which have been trouble free so far). I suspect the XTi issues (and the older iTech's) probably related to a bad batch of components from the suppliers as they've all been reliable since being repaired. The Europower that failed almost totally fried a PCB, the tech suspects a total short under full load combined with a slightly dodgy semiconductor somewhere, Berhinger must use lower grade components than more expensive gear to keep prices low.

I'd have no particular worries about buying a Europower or two if I needed some more power amps.

Thanks, good to know!

[sam.spoons]

My pleasure.

+1 Lee, there's nothing out there which does precisely what the DL does. If you want what the DL1608 does you buy it, if you want more you pay more......