The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..

[iBloke]

I've decided to start a new thread about this issue for several reasons.
Firstly here's where the new DL experience started to turn to crap for me http://cacophony.aspinock.com/index.php?topic=687.msg6639#msg6639

I have to mention I've been both a super moderator on various motorcycle and music forum before.
I've also spent a lot of time "steering the bus" as an admin on another music forum that uses the same "simple machines" forum software as this fine place.
So I'm fully aware of the "do a search it's been answered before" and "but you already had a thread about this why start a new one" posts from other forum members

My reason for a new thread is because of 2 things.
My replacement DL1608 also suffers from the white noise issue when playing music from the docked iPad, although no where near as much as my first one.
The new DL is also MUCH quieter in operations than the first one, as far as background hiss goes.

I've so far sent 3 emails to mackie about the issues with my first DL.

The first one was a simple bug report.

The second one I directed to Ben Olswang using the email address supplied to me here by the incredibly helpful member WK154, who has been helpful beyond what anybody could hope for, and I have the utmost respect him.

I sent a third email to Ben Olswang a few days ago expressing my extreme disappointment not only in mackie's complete lack of customer service, but also for ignoring a GLARING problem a LOT of DL owners are experiencing.
I made it clear to him that by his complete lack of of acknowledgement of my emails I regard both him and Mackie as ignorant.

I don't like being fobbed off.

Anyway both WK154 and I have both had recent emails ignored by this once great great company.

To my surprise I received an email last night directly from Ben Olswang, firstly making an apology for not replying to my emails, and secondly apologising for not yet having a resolution to the white noise problem that, "While it seems wide spread, it actually is very hard to reproduce on demand and does not occur for every user and every system." <-- his words.

Well duh! If it occurred for every user on every system mackie may well take it more seriously.

Anyway at least he hasn't denied it's existence.

..I still haven't decided whether I should take his apology seriously, or take it as a more polite way of being "fobbed off" ..
I need to give that some more thought. I've forwarded the emails to WK154 and am awaiting some consultation with him as to how to go forward.

But the reality right now is if someone dropped enough money in my hands to throw the DL in the garbage and buy an Allen & Heath QU-16 http://www.allen-heath.com/ahproducts/qu-16/ I'd jump at the opportunity and wash my hands of mackie forever.

I've been following the "For all the naysayers,, I love this board" thread here http://cacophony.aspinock.com/index.php?topic=696.0
I've seen it all before on other music forums. Someone piles the hate on because they got a piece of crap from some company.
Someone else counters with a thread about how happy they are with the same product and can't understand where the "naysayers" are coming from.


Here's the thing. The live music industry is NOT like a regular job where you can ring in sick, or your car broke down and ya just can't get to work on time..or at all, or somebody in your family died ..or whatever.
The show must go on!
That's just the way it works!

So if you are hired to supply audio gear, and/or a service in the entertainment industry, you need to make damn sure you can honour your commitment!

I've been able to honour ALL my 1000+ commitments over the past 27 years. Even when I suffered from a ruptured disk in my lower back a couple of times my colleges and good friends fronted up to do all the heavy lifting for me. Because they also understood that "the show must go on"

I've always chosen my audio gear carefully because I can't afford to have "shit go wrong" in the middle of a gig.

I should have taken more seriously the myriads of bad mackie reviews I read while researching this DL1608 abomination. ...my mistake..

I didn't. Now I'm paying the price.

The mackie DL1608 owners who refer to me as a "naysayer" would be wise to have a think about how they would feel under my circumstances.

Potential new Mackie DL1604 purchasers would also be wise to consider the consequences of using a buggy digital mixer.
The mixer is pretty much the central hub of a live gig. Broken mixer = no gig

Take a backup mixer!

I'll be doing that until I can afford the jump back to a Allen & Heath, which is a brand I can trust!

[Jerrylee]

I just dropped $45k plus on a set of foh speakers. And if I still had a dl I would tust it just fine to go with my system. I never had an issue with the dl. I just outgrew it. And I never used my iPad docked.

[robbocurry]

Mind telling what you bought speaker wise?

[Jerrylee]

I bought a db technologies array setup. Total of 8 Dva t8s 4 t12s and 4 s20dp subs. I still have my other Foh system which is 4 qsc kw153s with 4 kw181s. And for now I am keeping the 4 k10s, 2 k12s and 1 ksub that I use for monitors. I've also used a k12 as a center fill. Eventually I will buy the db tech monitors to go with the system. But for now I just needed a bigger Foh system. I'll probably keep the kw153s for stage and side fills. Haven't decided what to do with them yet.

I got a lucky contract that included at least 6 sound gigs ranging from 5-25k. Also includes a few national act concerts. And my band will be playing in a lot of them. I'm double dipping. I went way overboard with my purchase but with all these speakers I can have many different types of setups. I may only use the full set once or twice for the contract I have now.

[robbocurry]

Very impressive, I heard a demo of a DVA system and it sounded great. That's a lot of boxes for someone to hump around:)

[Jerrylee]

Yes it is a lot to hump around. Especially when 90%+ of the time I am doing it all on my own. Now I may have to bring in someone to help move everything around. Especially the subs. But wheels and a trailer with a ramp will help tons. I will only be ground stacking so I can still do a lot on my own. When and if I decide to fly the system my prices go way up. Eventually I plan on buying the db technologies flying rig.

[robbocurry]

I can't remember the name of them but the same dealer that had the DVA rig had another rig flown from a set of ground stands - a very impressive set of stands they were too. Like a counterbalance system, the price of a PA for them alone. 
The DVA subs are bulky alright, fair play to you working with them on your own.
I take it upstairs gigs will be a thing of the past now......?
You know what's coming next....
You're going to have to buy a desk with proper faders for that rig, I can guess what it'll be

[Keyboard Magic]

What this all boils down to, is what ARE we willing to accept when we buy new products and not just audio gear. This happens everywhere. Manufacturers know that their products have issues, but just don’t care anymore. Money is the key factor.

We shouldn’t have to “hope that our $1000.00 or $100.00 piece of gear is going to work every time” It should work all the time. I don’t care who makes it. I’m sure Mackie has known about these issues from day one when the first DL came off the line. If we always say, “I know this happens, but that’s okay, I can ignore that glitch if I do or don’t do this” What does that say about us as consumers?

We all like to bash and bitch about stuff, myself included, but why can’t we put all our animosity towards the manufacturers and each other into more creative ways to force not only Mackie, but all the other manufacturers out there to smarten up and concentrate on quality control and customer satisfaction instead? I think if enough people started to complain more often some things may change.

I'm sure someone out there will say that there’s never enough time to do anything anymore, why should I worry? Well there’s your answer in a nut shell. I guess we’ll all keep on complaining until the cows come home, or whatever!

[sam.spoons]

I seem to remember some bloke called Ralph Nader taking the US motor industry to task for continuing to sell cars which crashed and caught fire 'cos it was cheaper to pay the compensation than redesign the car.....

[robbocurry]

What this all boils down to, is what ARE we willing to accept when we buy new products and not just audio gear. This happens everywhere. Manufacturers know that their products have issues, but just don’t care anymore. Money is the key factor.

We shouldn’t have to “hope that our $1000.00 or $100.00 piece of gear is going to work every time” It should work all the time. I don’t care who makes it. I’m sure Mackie has known about these issues from day one when the first DL came off the line. If we always say, “I know this happens, but that’s okay, I can ignore that glitch if I do or don’t do this” What does that say about us as consumers?

We all like to bash and bitch about stuff, myself included, but why can’t we put all our animosity towards the manufacturers and each other into more creative ways to force not only Mackie, but all the other manufacturers out there to smarten up and concentrate on quality control and customer satisfaction instead? I think if enough people started to complain more often some things may change.

I'm sure someone out there will say that there’s never enough time to do anything anymore, why should I worry? Well there’s your answer in a nut shell. I guess we’ll all keep on complaining until the cows come home, or whatever!

Hang on a moment.
Can't really say Mackie are complicit in selling faulty goods as nobody has definitively proved the DL is at fault in this issue.
IMHO the biggest variable here is customers' iPads and the software they have on them, not faulty manufacturing or design.
Going with the consensus my DL must be faulty because I have never experienced the white noise issue - what makes mine so different?
I think it's so random Mackie can't even get a handle on it to see how they can address it, their fault or not.
Unless a customer is willing to send their "faulty" DL and iPad back to Mackie, I think it will take a long time to be fixed.

[sam.spoons]

As I've said mine has been faultless but there are enough duff ones out there (a pal of mine from just up the road inManchester has bought one which exhibits exactly this issue), surely when a customer returns a faulty one it's not beyond the wit of the dealer to send the faulty unit back to Mackie with an appropriate report?

If all those who have the "White Noise" problem will post details, (serial number of DL, date purchased, iPad model, iOS and MF versions) it should become obvious if a specific combination of iPad/iOS/DL/MF is most susceptible.

[robbocurry]

Hey Sam,
Don't supposed you ever considered a dl swap with your pal just to see what would happen?

[WK154]

Robbo this is from the Headmasters office, JL is correct in and I must quote him " It's getting old. Sorry that the truth hurts. ". Yes and you JL can't handle the truth!! Kindly explain this test results:

    Quote from: WK154 on July 09, 2014, 08:19:57 AM

        The reason that the iPad is the least likely source of the white noise is that all the music docking stations would have similar problems, none are reported AFAIK. It's easy enough to test when the noise happens un-dock the iPad and listen. Does the local speaker have noise or music?

iBloke
    Yep removing the iPad didn't stop the noise when I tried that.
WK154
OK was the noise out of the DL or out of the iPad's built-in speakers?
iBloke
The noise was out of the PA, not the iPad speakers. I shut it down really quickly coz it was waaaay loud.

So that leaves ESP from the iPad to the DL for audio.  A new Mackie innovation. Rumor has it that the DL was designed by Aliens and we now have to wait upon their return for a fix. 

When a company makes a requirement that in order for proper use of their product you need another (iPad) then it behooves that company to make it work. Statements like this " The white noise problem is NOT A MACKIE ISSUE.. are naive at best. The 3 rules in the supply chain process are 1. NO SINGLE SOURCE. 2. NO SINGLE SOURCE. 3. NO SINGLE SOURCE. Those that violate these rules ultimately pay the price.
 

[robbocurry]

Sorry WK, the dog ate my homework:/

I'm not saying who is to blame and I never said who wasn't to blame either! (check my post)
I just made another suggestion as to what might be the cause.
No disrespect to you or iBloke, but the results of your "extensive" field test are hardly definitive.

Is it not beyond the realms of possibility that the white noise could be triggered by the iPad?
Once triggered, undocking the iPad has no further effect on whatever it has done to the DL - now the dominos are dropping, the ball is rolling, the clock is ticking - you get the idea...?
You're an engineer, can't you see that as a possibility?

Ok, so discarding my theory above completely, I'll get back to a point I'd like to make.
Think about this:
What percentage of DLs are demonstrating this fault?
Does anyone know?
At what percentage could anyone say, without any doubt, that Mackie knew there was a problem from the outset?

Cause, blame, percentages - who really knows? I don't.

What I am sure about is that I didn't agree with the assumption that Mackie released the DL aware of the "white noise" problem.
That is my opinion and you're all welcome to change it with facts if you can. But hey, I really don't care, mine is working fine!
 
That's the last time I'll put my hand up in class!

Peace out dudes

 

[WK154]

Chill Robbo you only got one sentence and that was to continue your satire on JL's outbursts. Don't read more into it.   Blame was never a topic it's quite clear who's to blame, hint starts with M.  So far iBloke's data is the only solid evidence, Abzurd videoed this but it was to short an audio event to be useful but it certainly drove the point home to Mackie. The rest were reports with various hand waving and uncertain conditions but plentiful enough to consider it a problem by any responsible  manufacturer. They have had plenty of opportunity to get faulty units from their returns and test them including iBloke's. As to the trigger for this problem I agree with you that it's started by the MF program as I explained here.
 http://cacophony.aspinock.com/index.php?topic=687.msg6729#msg6729
Mackie knows the numbers but won't fess up. No one AFAIK is saying that they suspected that Mackie knew about the problem at launch but it was pointed out to them early on (over a year ago). We need class participation  . No worries mate as they say down under.