DL32R Latency while recording.

[Zapme]

I was wondering has anyone hooked up their DL32r to a daw? I read the specs sheet it says the mixers latency is 1.5ms. I'm just wondering when monitoring your mic signal directly to an aux how bad will the delay sound.  With the channel in the daw muted of course. And will it increase if you decide add any additional processing as eq, comp for a better headphone mix.  I'm currently trying to decide if I want to go with the DL32R or X32 Rack for my home studio. Thanks

[Wynnd]

1.5 ms latency is virtually non-existant.  Human ear won't notice it at all.

[ijpengelly]

Every digital mixer adds latency, but to put it into perspective, its like having a monitor speaker in an analogue system 5cm from your ear.... 

[RoadRanger]

Every digital mixer adds latency, but to put it into perspective, its like having a monitor speaker in an analogue system 5cm from your ear.... 

Check yur math there, decimal point ain't right. It's 51 cm.

[Zapme]

I am currently use the dl1608 with my band live and I run in ears.  If I have it set to pre fader, with no processing the delay is reduced quite a bit.  When I engage the eq and comp then it makes my guitar almost sound like there is slap back because I'm hearing my cab arriving before my ears.  I'm just trying to figure out when recording it might be better off to run no processing if I do decide to purchase the dl32r.  I did research the x32 rack and its delay is 0.8 ms.  Presonus doesn't show any specs on delay.  I used to have a studiolive and delay was far less than the mackie.  Decisions decisions.  By just going off the iPad app mackie wins by a mile.  The behringer app isn't very quick to get around.

[Wynnd]

latency isn't an issue when recording.  It is an issue when using the mixer for live sound.  Those still sound like fairly small numbers yet.

[Sir Krang]

My latency observations ain't about recording, but they are still about noticeable latency.

DL1608. 10 channels used.

2 x stereo electronic drum kit.
Bass guitar
Guitar
5 x vocals
Mono midi keyboards and backing track.

I tried to send the drummer his own in ear send. He uses a small analogue mixer for his click track, midi, and in-ear mix.
The very first time we tried to do use the DL for his own send he complained that the drum he hit was noticiably sooner than what he was hearing in his ears.
So whatever latency the DL1608 has was enough to throw the bands drummer/metronome off.

We've gone back to original convoluted patching for the drummers monitor mix, which completely bypass's the DL's aux sends.

Bummer!

[RoadRanger]

The very first time we tried to do use the DL for his own send he complained that the drum he hit was noticiably sooner than what he was hearing in his ears.

I'm pretty sure you were doing something wrong - the mixer's latency is about the same as the distance from the drum heads to the drummer's ears. One of the "joys" of a digital mixer is it's quite easy to screw up . For starters make sure there is no delay dialed in on the aux output. Also make sure the delay fx is not up in that aux.

[Wynnd]

That's levels of latency that I've not noticed.  (I'm not a drummer so what do I know.)   Might want to have his drums picked up locally to his IEM.  (most have a local mic option) and mix in what else he needs from the board.  And I'll be honest, acoustic drums shouldn't need to be in his IEMs.  (My Take anyway.)  IEMs don't block out the entire world, so if the drums aren't in his mix, the rest can be dropped significantly in volume and become much more protective of whatever hearing he has left.

[WK154]

How about just using the spec'd delay of 1.5 milliseconds or about a little more than a foot and a half.(1.7ft. depending on air temp. ) It's fixed time-wise the rest is imagination or wrong settings.
For IEM's most of it is the IEM delays which can be significant for low cost wireless units (20+milliseconds). One more thing, mic placement can be a factor if too far from the drum. Here is a study by Shure engineers and it also depends on the instrument you play.  http://www.lsbaudio.com/publications/AES_Latency.pdf

[Sir Krang]

The very first time we tried to do use the DL for his own send he complained that the drum he hit was noticiably sooner than what he was hearing in his ears.

I'm pretty sure you were doing something wrong - the mixer's latency is about the same as the distance from the drum heads to the drummer's ears. One of the "joys" of a digital mixer is it's quite easy to screw up . For starters make sure there is no delay dialed in on the aux output. Also make sure the delay fx is not up in that aux.

Nope. Nothing wrong. Zero FX, compression on any AUX. Only EQ.

Edit: oh and I find master fader 3 so simple to use it would be hard to screw up.
I preprogram ever show at my Leasure in my man cave prior to a gig. Including roughly EQ'ing the monitors to be used.

[Sir Krang]

That's levels of latency that I've not noticed.  (I'm not a drummer so what do I know.)   Might want to have his drums picked up locally to his IEM.  (most have a local mic option) and mix in what else he needs from the board.  And I'll be honest, acoustic drums shouldn't need to be in his IEMs.  (My Take anyway.)  IEMs don't block out the entire world, so if the drums aren't in his mix, the rest can be dropped significantly in volume and become much more protective of whatever hearing he has left.

No mention of acoustic drums in my post. 2 channels used for stereo electronic kit.
He has always sent those to his IEM mixer, and I take the stereo feed from that.

The only time we tried going directly to the DL and then sending him an AUX feed he complained there was a delay in what he was hearing IEM compared to when he hit a drum.

We swapped it back to the original at the end of sound check and he said the "latency" (the word he used was delay) had gone.

I'm not a drummer either, so I took his word for what he was hearing, although the very first thing I checked was that I had no FX in his AUX send. Nothing except EQ. 

[WK154]

Yup that one went right past me (electronic stereo drum kit). That's a whole other kettle of fish. Here is a history of the delay battle to get e-drums to finally work  http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep04/articles/livesound.htm  (2004) and today's are even better. Bet he's not playing on a TD-30 ($2000) or some in the $7000 range. I'm not convinced that 1.5 milliseconds additional delay can affect delay perception over an analog mixer. There is more to this than meets the eye. The complete setup needs to be detailed to give a reasonable answer. Can we at least assume he's not using wireless IEM's ?

[Sir Krang]

G'day Bill.
As I've said, I'm not a drummer, but after having served 28+ years in the live music industry I've heard a LOT of different drum kits, both acoustic, and electronic.

Daz, the drummer I'm referring to, has had a massive history of gigs with me over the years.
He is one of those drummers who have a built in machine like sense of timing.

I don't know the model of his current electronic kit, but it is built by Roland, and cost him around $15000
Truly magnificent sounding drum and symbol samples. A sound engineers wet dream LOL

Anyway due to our personal history of hundreds of gigs together I'm perfectly happy to listen to his opinions, and feedback.
If he heard a noticeable delay in his ears when we tried to simplify his monitor patching using a direct AUX send from the DL then I'm 100% happy with his observations.

He heard it. I accept that. We went back to his "convoluted" analogue monitor system and he's all happy again.

ZERO mistakes on my part as has been suggested.
I would find it incredibly insulting that anyone who knows me, my impeccable history, and my 100% grasp/understanding of both my DL1608 (which I love for many reasons) and Master fader 3.

Way too simple and logical to make any kind of "screw up". In fact I view it simply as a digital representation of the many physical "faders and knobs" analogue mixers I've used over the decades.

And I actually used a set of my own earphones at last nights gig between soundcheck and gig time to try and hear for myself if there really is a noticeable "delay" between me hitting a drum, and what I hear in my ears.
The observation is Yes, there is. But from my perspective the delay is so minute I can't really imagine how it would make any difference.

Buy like I said, I'm not a drummer. Daz is, and a Very good one.!
If he can't live with the "latency" "delay"  he hears between hitting the snare, and what he hears then who am I to argue.
It's there. Daz is a veteran drummer and has his job as a metronome slightly messed up by the latency.

All of us sound guys can argue all we like about whether the issue exist or not, and whether it's a negative for a proper musician or not.

Daz, and his band, pay me a lot of money every year (about 5 years so far. Not including 10's of past years in other bands) to do the very best job I can.
I'm happy to admit if I've made any mistakes.

But after "fault finding" any possible human error and finding none, I find it VERY insulting for anybody to point their finger at me and say I screwed up.
The latency/delay issue in this case lies 100% in the electronics pipeline.

At the end of the day Daz and I have gone back to the tried and proven method we've used for his monitoring requirements because for him the DL & MF3 don't deliver what he needs.

p.s. I know this topic is about "DL32R latency while recording" and my posts have been a bit off topic. But I needed to put my 2cents in regarding "latency" issues with Mackies DL products.

[Sir Krang]

... Can we at least assume he's not using wireless IEM's ?

Sorry Bill, I forgot to address this.

No wireless IEM's
His takes direct wired stereo outputs from his personal analogue mixer that controls click track, midi backing tracks, and of course his own drum monitor

And he uses custom fit IEM's. This bloke is a Pro Muso!